All the sudden sanders wants obamacare saved.

[boston bean]

Wish he wouldn't have beat Hillary over the head with wanting to replace it with medicare for all and making her seem like a corporate hack for wanting to save it and fix it.

Why isn't he fighting for medicare for all against republicans. Is it because its the best he can get with republican opposition?

Hmm. This is what happens when one makes another out to be a corrupt politician against the little people. He gets people spun up and the realistic plan to fix it to better everyone of us is out the window and we are down to saving it from the people who want to destroy it.

This is what is wrong with thinking the democratic party and republican party are two sides of the same coin.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/312000-sanders-dem-leaders-urge-day-of-rallies-to-save-health-care

[boston bean]

2. I am not trashing him.

[Renew Deal]

3. What do you call it?

[boston bean]

5. Defending the democratic party.

[Renew Deal]

6. He's in the Democratic Party leadership.

They have gotten over it. You should too

[boston bean]

8. Get over what?

[leftofcool]

9. So is Joe Manchin who want to work with the Dumpster

[Ken Burch]

40. Bernie's support for single-payer was never an ATTACK on the Democratic Party.

And he supported leaving the ACA in place until single-payer was passed, so the OP is based on an untruth.

During the primaries, Clinton supporters made it sound like, if he was elected, Bernie was going to start out by supporting ACA repeal and THEN work for single-payer. There was never the possibility that a Sanders victory was going to lead to people being stripped of their existing coverage.

And there is no good reason for anyone to STILL be using primary attack lines against Bernie(just as no one should be using primary attack lines against Hillary anymore). He's not running for president now and most likely never will again...so give it a rest already.

[liberalmike27]

47. Exactly

This was one of the many tactics, ridiculous to the informed, that David Brock and Hillary pulled during the primary. Sadly Democrats as a whole are uninformed repeaters of MSNBC, as if that was a liberal network.

He wanted to make it better--he never would have gotten rid of it, before something else was put into place. Remember Hillary was calling for "incremental" (barely any) change.

[DanTex]

57. I disagree. It was an attack on the Democratic Party.

Of course he wasn't going to get rid of ACA first and then hope to replace it later with single payer.

However, he and his campaign did attack ACA, which is the greatest Democratic Party accomplishment since LBJ. And he also attacked Hillary for not being in favor of single payer. In fact, at one of his rallies, a speaker called Hillary a "corporate whore" (to great applause) because she wasn't for single payer (something that everyone knows would have been utterly futile given the GOP in congress).

[padfun]

65. If I remember right,

It was Bill Clinton who trashed the ACA.

[DanTex]

74. No, it was Bernie. It was also Bernie who refused to concede for a month after he was eliminated.

And Bernie was also the one constantly tarring Hillary as an establishment insider, and giving Trump various other gifts. Which is why his current actions raise a lot of Dem eyebrows.

[Exilednight]

77. Actually, Bill trashed it to. He had a chance to pass it

when it was a Republican idea, but opted for Hillary's plan which never panned out.

[WhiteTara]

63. I guess we were in a parrallel universe

during the primaries. You are right, the attack wasn't on the Party but on the Party's Candidate.

[dionysus]

70. I know. This is just sad by this point...

[Chasstev365]

54. Oh no; not trashing him at all.

You've been trashing him for months.

[stopbush]

4. This

[PatsFan87]

7. A single payer system would be far superior to the system we have now.

If he were elected president, Sanders would have moved in that direction. He was not elected president. Clearly he will fight against Obamacare being scrapped because Republicans don't have any plan to replace it with something better.

[Recursion]

53. Maybe. It might be far worse. Look at Medicare Part D

The prospect of handing the keys to my health care over to Donald Trump and Paul Ryan makes me kind of glad we didn't get single payer...

[OrwellwasRight]

85. What???

Medicare Part D isn't single payer. Medicare Part D uses insurance companies as middle men--and therefore is "multi-payer." Medicare Parts A and B are single payer. That's the point of comparison. Ryan wants to eliminate A and B and move everyone into C, which is known as "Medicare Advantage," and which is privatized in a similar way to Part D. Medicare Advantage (Part C) funnels seniors into profit-making insurance companies just like Part D does. And then, once all seniors have been doled out to insurance companies by being forced into Part C, Ryan wants to slowly ratchet down what the government spends per senior so that seniors will have to fork out more of their own money or else forgo care -- this is what is known as a voucher program. Instead of paying for all eligible care, only a fixed cash amount will be covered, leaving some folks out in the cold. That is not single payer. It should be called guaranteed profit instead.

[Yurovsky]

109. Exactly... why do you think...

All the insurers fought to keep C funded? Because they make a killing off of it...

[OrwellwasRight]

110. Yep.

Which is why Part D should not be referred to as "Single Payer." It isn't.

[Lil Missy]

134. Bernie would have no more luck getting single payor than Obama did.

Not with a Repuke Congress.

[lapucelle]

10. Sanders also stated that he is willing to work with Trump for a $10 an hour minimum wage.

He made this statement 8 days after the election. That didn't take long.

He (Trump) talked about raising the minimum wage to $10,” Sanders said. “That’s not high enough for me, but it’s better than $7.25 an hour, and we look forward to working with him to raise the minimum wage."

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/monitor_breakfast/2016/1117/Sen.-Bernie-Sanders-It-s-time-for-Democratic-soul-searching

[Hassin Bin Sober]

12. I don't know why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

But when you are arguing the concept of what should be the best health care plan or minimum wage rate with people in your own DEMOCRATIC PARTY who will soon (we all hoped) be in a position to call those shots, and the choice is between "good" and "excellent" - you push for excellent.

Now we are up against the orange shit head and their party who OWNS ALL THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT and thinks minimum wage should be zero and Obamacare should be fully repealed with no replacement whatsoever.

Of course you will retreat to hold on to what little we have. Are people just being intentionally obtuse?

This silliness reminds me of repigs blaming everything on Obama starting on day one. It's childish.

[boston bean]

13. It is what will pass. What can be passed.

Not pie in the sky promises that never have a chance in hell of passing. Prrof they would never pass is sanders willingness to now save obamacare from people who want to destroy it. You think these people who want to desteoy it exist in a bubble and are not be dealt with realisitcally?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

17. Well the plan was to have The Presidency and The Senate.

Until that "nothingburger" blew up in our faces.

[boston bean]

23. Republican opposition and citizen opposition to single payer still

still exists.

To make grand promises one knows will never come to pass and then later capitulate to the realities is anything but principled.

[LiberalLovinLug]

58. You mean like gay marriage and legal recreational pot were just "pipe dreams"?

When leadership promotes an idea and it is being discussed and debated, and light is shed on the subject, the truth eventually comes out. (Like gay marriage will not destroy traditional marriage or have everyone marrying their pet, and taking marijuana does not make you play the piano crazy fast and kill people)

For Single Payer it would be revealed that the overall cost is much cheaper, thus LESS of a monetary burden for citizens. Fiscal conservatives would come around to that. Its also a fact that American businesses have a disadvantage when bidding for international contracts because they would have to include their own worker medical insurance costs. Every other country the workers take care of it by their spread-out mandatory contributions via their own government programs. Not only that but the relief of never having to ever worry about health care again ever, from birth to death? I think eventually America will wake up to these facts but now its just going to take longer is all.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

61. Yep. And it sure doesn't help with Brock and the conservadems calling it freebies and pipe dreams.

[Jim Lane]

66. And like Medicare when it was first proposed.

Harry Truman tried to do something about health care for the elderly. He didn't get anything passed, but he got the ball rolling. Years later, when LBJ signed Medicare into law, a grinning Truman was sitting right next to him.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

[boston bean]

69. Federally Pot is Legal??? wow, didn't know that?

And did republicans give us gay marriage? NO, they fight it like hell. It was the courts who did that.

[LiberalLovinLug]

97. Those would not have happened without the attention

And my overall point, even though I think you are just being deliberately naive, is that even 10 years ago those things would have been unthinkable at the federal or state level.

[boston bean]

100. Well, right now, single payer is not an option. Bernie realizes that. Hillary realized that but

Bernie decided to call her a corrupt establishment politician.

[LiberalLovinLug]

101. WHOOSH!

[boston bean]

102. don't think so.

[kcr]

103. I heard a whoosh of a point going over someone's head

I think they thought it was for you!

[Grey Lemercier]

131. this!!!!

[lapucelle]

15. Why not try fighting before you surrender?

When Hillary signaled that she was willing to fight for "good" in areas where "excellent" was unfeasible or not immediately possible, Sanders and his supporters attacked her.

This is what's known as a double standard.

[TCJ70]

26. There is no double standard...

...saying you'll fight for "good" over "excellent" is a signal you've already forfeited possible outcomes. Going in with the goal of "excellent" and coming out with "good" is better than going in with the goal of "good" and coming out with "OK".

[boston bean]

27. Making one out to be a corrupt politiciam for apeaking the truth v pie in the sky

Never gonna pass is what is at issue here.

[kcr]

29. Wrong, wrong, wrong

"saying you'll fight for "good" over "excellent" is a signal you've already forfeited possible outcomes"

Number one, claiming that is what she was doing is so dishonest. Our country's government has too many vetos that allow for too much obstruction. It's very hard to actually get anything done. Should a politician lie for political expediency and then leave the voters disappointed when they don't deliver? Or should they be honest in what they can actually deliver? Which is the smarter choice?

Bernie Sander's claims, to me, spoke of a politician who was making claims he knew he couldn't deliver, and was attacking his opponent dishonestly, both for political expediency. He didn't know when to quit. . And now we have Trump. And he shows his hand now by fighting for the very thing he attacked her for.

[trc]

37. I could not agree more.

The belief that Sanders or Hillary could have gotten single payer passed was ridiculous. To believe such is to ignore what the repubs have been doing the last 8 years...Obstruct, Obstruct, Obstruct. The only way this would have passed would have been through supermajorities in the House and the Senate and the presidency, and that was never a possible outcome of this election. We can wish for it, desire it and hope for it...But when the massive change we want does not happen, we have to fight for what can happen and work to preserve what we already have.

[liberalmike27]

49. Wanting to do

Wanting to do the best things, single-payer, and $15/hour minimum wage, a huge infrastructure program, taxing the rich heavily, is exactly what gets part of that 80 million people who don't bother to vote, out there voting for your Congressional, and Presidential candidates. Sadly, we got the person who adopted some of Bernie's ideas, then watered them down, for her "public" platform, us knowing how she really felt, by observing her earlier campaign.

[TCJ70]

87. Between someone who says:

"I'm going to work towards $15/hour" and someone who says "I'm going to work towards $12/hour", I'll take the person working towards $15. It's not a hard choice. When we look at candidates we should look at what their goals are. If I like one candidates set of goals I'll choose them. It's hardly a lie to say "This is what I want" and that kind of thinking is what will keep us stuck with people who go for half and end up with a quarter.

Purposely choosing lesser goals is going to get you some criticism.

[kcr]

90. That's fine

But it's not ok for the 15 an hour candidate to slam the 12 an hour candidate dishonestly, and claim they're only working for 12 because they're against 15 an hour. It will especially look bad when the 12 loses in part because of the damage Mr 15 did, and then 15 has to fight for the scraps against 2 Dollar an Hour Guy who ended up winning. See? All of a sudden the 12 an hour he was railing against looks good, and he looks like a hypocrite.

[TCJ70]

94. Not at all...

...going for 12 is not going for 15. Also, the situation now is Mr. 15 has to work with people who want 0 and have the power to enact it. Adjusting for the situation is required at this point. It's by no means hypocritical and reminiscent of that pragmatism everyone praised Mrs. 12 for...

[JustAnotherGen]

138. You are the best!

[George II]

144. As they said years ago, "half a loaf is better than none"!

[TheKentuckian]

104. No, you actually fucking try and if you are stopped you relentlessly, stridently, and clearly who

stopped you and never stop putting it around their neck and you do it unambiguously.

Then you pound and pound it without deviation no matter what the fucking anyone says including the polls or the media never apologizing or recalibration.

This is how the window is moved. Consistent message and core principles as clear as day.

[kcr]

105. Read what I'm actually saying. It's not the trying I disagree with. It's the dishonest attacks.

It is utterly dishonest to claim that Hillary was against single payer! Is Bernie Sanders now against it now that he's fighting Trump to save Obamacare? It sure would be dishonest to make that claim, wouldn't it? But he had no qualms doing that very sort of thing to her.

[PatsFan87]

28. Are you specifically talking about healthcare?

I was disappointed when Hillary went after Bernie in the primaries when she asked where he was when she was fighting for universal healthcare in the 90s (the picture surfaced where he was literally standing right behind her in support- not to mention he met with her behind closed doors). Then Hillary and Chelsea went around spreading fear that Bernie wanted to dismantle Obamacare and millions would be left without insurance (even though single-payer covers everyone). To quote David Axelrod: "Bernie Sanders is proposing single-payer, universal healthcare. You can hardly say he is trying to take health care away from anyone or retreat from Obamacare. He's trying to exceed it. And so it's not really an honest attack." I'm all for getting down to brass tacks and having debates on the benefits and practicality of proposals but to do that requires honesty from all sides, not smears and fear mongering.

[boston bean]

30. The discussion was his categorization of her. To be beholden to health insurance companies.

That she was corrupted because she wanted to fix obamacare instead of replacing it with single payer.

[PatsFan87]

34. I don't think people thought she was corrupted for wanting to fix Obamacare

as much as they thought she was corrupted for the millions she received from the drug industry and health insurance industry- and for the Podesta Group's work lobbying on behalf of pharmaceutical companies. We can debate until the cows come home whether or not those donations had an influence on her policy proposals. Clearly though, the optics of having raised more money from the drug industry than all of the Republicans who attempted a run for the White House combined was an issue worth addressing for many people suffocating under health care costs.

[boston bean]

84. So, Bernie didn't want to tear down such a corrupt system, like many are saying????.. but

Hillary didn't want to either and she was painted as a corporate lackey.

I'm not gonna allow people to re-write what happened and what that man did and said. Claiming she was beholden to corporations and calling her winning rigged. And not conceding even at the convention.

I am still extremely pissed off about it. Probably won't ever not be. I think he did us no favors and helped trump. Those are my personal thoughts.

[PatsFan87]

89. When did Bernie say her winning was rigged?

Some of his supporters did but I never heard that come out of Bernie's mouth. I did see where he said it wasn't rigged though:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bernie-sanders-agrees-democratic-process-not-rigged

Does the senator himself believe this? CBS’s John Dickerson asked Sanders for his perspective on “Face the Nation” aired on Sunday, and the candidate’s answer seemed quite fair.

“What has upset me, and what I think is – I wouldn’t use the word rigged, because we knew what the words were – but what is really dumb is that you have closed primaries, like in New York state, where three million people who are Democrats or Republicans could not participate, where you have situation where over 400 superdelegates came on board Clinton’s campaign before anybody else was in the race, eight months before the first vote was cast.

“That’s not rigged. I think it’s just a dumb process which has certainly disadvantaged our campaign.”

And I thought he was quite fair and gracious at the convention since his supporters were angry since this was right after the DNC leaks, In his speech he said:

Any objective observer will conclude that based on her ideas and her leadership, Hillary Clinton must become the next president of the United States.

Then he went through issue by issue where Hillary was on the right side and Trump was on the wrong side before ending with:

Our job now is to see that strong Democratic platform implemented by a Democratic-controlled Senate...

...by a Democratic House and a Hillary Clinton presidency!

Then he went on to nominate Hillary for the roll call vote. Did people want him to spit shine Hillary's shoes?

[lapucelle]

32. No. I was talking about Sanders willingness to accept a $10 an hour minimum wage.

[mcar]

20. And yet when Hillary proposed a $12 minimum wage, some people on this board went ballistic

with all of their usual corporatist, turd way, DLC, oligarchy stuff.

Why, then must Bernie not be criticized for capitulating so early on to a lesser MW? During the primary, it was $15 or nothing, just as it was single payer or nothing.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. Show me where anybody said 15 or nothing or single payer or nothing.

Seriously. Ridiculous.

[kcr]

98. "Kill the bill!"

You don't remember that BS? The Firebaggers? I do. That's just one example. I want more than anything to be able to push for the best we can get. But it seems like too much of the progressive movement is full of dishonest bullshit and vicious attacks and eating our own. I don't get it. Why can't we push for change without doing damage? And Bernie Sanders pulls the same crap.

[Cha]

135. You tell the truth, kcr..

Sorry, I tried

[bravenak]

114. I damn sure remember it very well. You do too, you were a host of GD, so if you forgot

Google it, because boy oh boy is it there

[Hassin Bin Sober]

116. So you are saying during the campaign people said 15 or no minimum wage at all?

That doesn't even make any sense. Federal minimum wage was/is established law.

Same with single payer. Nobody was talking about repealing Affordable Care if we couldn't get single payer.

[bravenak]

118. Fuck yeah

Called her a corporatist and nastily the 'establishment' who wants big business to have all the money and not pay workers. She said the minimum should be TWELVE. Now Bernie goes for TEN with a SMILE for DONALD after trippin when she said twelve. 'S why us black folks and feminists are like, no thanks. Sounds like some more bullshit double standards. Then he wanted to PRIMARY OBAMA for not getting single payers cause he thinks OBAMACARE SUX, but now he wants to save the ACA. We aint dumb. Us black folks been played for fools by politicians for decades and we hate watching white folks and other act brand spanking new like they aint never seen a politician before. He is one. And he talks out the side if his neck just like they ALL DO.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

124. Neither Bernie or anyone in his campaign or anyone here said 15 or "nothing"

People really wanted no minimum wage? Is that your position?

You are being silly.

Same with ACA. Bernie has spoken at length about the positives of ACA both during the primary (plus the dire need to expand) and while campaigning for HRC - including the dangers of a Trump Presidency taking away health care for millions of Americans.

Nobody was talking about doing away with ACA if we couldn't get single payer.

Enough of this childishness.

I'm not arguing about liking or not liking HRC with someone who admitted hating her guts. I supported her in 2008.

I'm out.

[bravenak]

125. It was fifteen or no change at all

And yu can pretend if you want to, but they talked mad shit about the idea of TWELVE. But now TEN is just hunky dory. Yeah, more double talk bullshit politicking

[liberalmike27]

51. I wouldn't say ballistic

I would however, point out $12 an hour isn't a living wage.

That should mean something to a Democrat. If you are a Democrat, then maybe you should reexamine what you believe, and how you came to those beliefs. Who sold you on 40% of the population struggling to make ends meet, and going massively into debt, to survive? Why is that OK, to you?

[kcr]

99. Well, 15 dollars sure as shit isn't, either

What matters more is tying it to cost of living. THAT is what you fight for. That is the real brass ring. I have to wonder why no politician ever seems to do that? Hmm.

[bravenak]

127. Neither is ten but he seems fine with ten now

[LiberalLovinLug]

62. Exactly

[Jim Lane]

68. Good question. Here's my amateur analysis.

You ask, "Are people just being intentionally obtuse?" My guess is that "intentionally" is a little too harsh. I suggest instead that some people are so blinded by partisanship that they can't see any fault on their own side or any merit in another side. They will embrace any attack on someone they dislike, regardless of how foolish the attack is. For any criticism of their own side, no matter how valid, they don't intentionally put their fingers in their ears and say "La-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you," but they might as well.

Consider the millions of Trump voters who think unemployment went up under Obama. They're being obtuse but, in my judgment, not intentionally so.

Unfortunately, the ultimate effect is the same. The obtuseness remains.

This is the point in the post where I would explain my solution for dealing with the problem -- if I had a solution, which I don't.

[sheshe2]

11. Oh my!

[Ohioblue22]

14. Wow Bernie thanks again for all your help. Good thing you

Stepped in and saved us from electing hillary. You made Ralph proud

[LisaM]

31. Yeah......I agree with you.

I would have liked to have seen this fervor in late July, but we didn't.

[bowens43]

55. complete nonsense

hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Put the blame where it belongs, with the candidate who couldnt beat the least qualified person ever to run......

[Ohioblue22]

56. terrible candidate bullshit she was the most qualified

omg an email oh my god how awful. i put the blame where it belongs in bernie and his followers. bernie cost us the election along with his army of bobs
that will be bernie's legacy

[bravenak]

119. I agree

[Ohioblue22]

143. we could have been shaping the judiciary to suit our needs

but you know an email happened and now we cant have nice things. thanks bernie, bobs, stein etal

[PoliticAverse]

16. I'm going to rec this thread for exposure. See if you can spot the logical fallacy...

in the OP's post.

[lapucelle]

18. There is no logical fallacy, but I do discern a note of pomposity...

however, it's not in the OP.

[PoliticAverse]

19. Don't be so hard on yourself I wouldn't call your reply pompous. n/t

[lapucelle]

21. The very cogent "I know you are, but what am I?" response from a master logician!

Excuse me a moment while I put you on ignore.

[PoliticAverse]

22. Thanks for the notice. n/t

[NCTraveler]

25. His whole career!!!!

Ding Ding Ding.... Am I a winner.

[NCTraveler]

24. He is a career politician acting like a career politician.

His career politician status is even enhancing itself as he fills his coffers on his way out the door.

[aikoaiko]

52. Is he working for the banks like Barney Frank? Is he working for big health care like Howard Dean?

Is he giving quarter million dollar private speeches whose content is hidden from average voters?

Is he a multi-million dollar consultant for a for-profit educational company like Bill Clinton?

LOL. LOL

You really think you should be throwing stones because Bernie has written book? Somethin all of the aforementioned have also done.

[dionysus]

76. Thenprojection is astounding... and sad...

[riderinthestorm]

122. Word. SMDH nt

[Gothmog]

33. Who is surprised by this shift in positions?

[lostnfound]

35. You have so much ENERGY for criticizing Bernie!

Wow, I wish I had all that energy!

[HenryWallace]

60. Can't agree more!!!

I quickly become exhausted whenever I come here.....

Every dodge and excuse to ignore the meaning of this disaster.

[R B Garr]

36. Great point. I think this is what they call selling out.

Someone else down thread brought up the sell out about minimum wage, too. You are right; they would have been labeled as crooked and demonized. What a shame that this divisive tactic was allowed to continue in our primary.

[Ken Burch]

38. Look, Bernie never wanted the ACA simply repealed, for God's sakes.

He did and does want it replaced by single-payer, but he was always going to leave the ACA in place UNTIL single-payer was established, and would have signed any legislation passed by a Democratic Congress to fix the ACA's problems.

There was no justification for the Clinton primary campaign's insistence that he'd have repealed the ACA FIRST.

OK?

[R B Garr]

41. lol, this is just one small example of the divisive dishonesty that was allowed

to permeate this primary and was politely referred to as an "artful smear" because Bernie had to be treated with kid gloves so that his supporters didn't get upset over criticism of him.

Bernie couldn't even get single payer passed in Vermont, so he knows that holding Hillary to a standard that he could not enact himself was basically dishonest. Most people realized that his over promising was just trying to damage his opponent, though. At least in the primary.

[Ken Burch]

43. It's obvious that Bernie didn't want to weaken Hillary in the fall, and that he and his supporters

didn't want Trump to win.

And as to the "kid gloves" thing: Bernie was smeared as indifferent to racism over and over again, and the effectiveness of that smear was at least half the reason he wasn't nominated. We all heard everything negative there was to hear about Bernie...it was all leaked, it was all about stuff from decades ago, and none of it would have made a difference in the fall.

[R B Garr]

48. Before the Fall, Bernie's main goal was to defeat Clinton, and his tactics

were divisive and dishonest. On top of the blatant over promising that was unsupported by his own record, he gave Trump and the GOP ready made soundbites that did nothing but rile his supporters up and cause divisiveness -- a perfect situation for the real crooked people like the GOP to exploit.

Bernie couldn't even get Democrats to support him in the primary, so obviously he was not viable for the Fall.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

64. You mean divisive and dishonest like when Chelsea claimed Bernie wants to take away your Medicare?

"Sen. Sanders wants to dismantle Obamacare, dismantle the CHIP program, dismantle Medicare, and dismantle private insurance," Clinton said in New Hampshire Jan. 12.

Seriously, she really said that.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/14/chelsea-clinton/chelsea-clinton-mischaracterizes-bernie-sanders-he/

[R B Garr]

71. omg, this kind of divisiveness is what Bernie enabled with his dishonest

claims that are parroted back upon Democrats instead of the GOP where it belongs.

Remember Hillary's fight for healthcare when her husband was President? Nice of you to only back up to where you think it benefits Bernie and any part that credits Clinton is manipulated. Bernie's over promising about single payer implied that it was intended to replace the existing system, which was the hard-fought ACA. Now he's promoting the ACA so that he can position himself as the only voice of "the people". He did that manipulation by saying that Hillary was against single payer when that is not true. Word games are a waste of time when it's obvious what the intention was in maligning Hillary.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

88. Hillary's fight for health care was one of the main reasons I supported her since the 90s...

.... and in 2008.

It's why I stood up to people in real life and online (some of them current Hillary supporters right here) who supported Obama and claimed she was unfit and a liar. - some of them very vocal HRC supporters who once claimed she was the worst person in the world when she ran against Obama.

Then I watched her and listened to her with my own two eyes and ears claim single payer "will never, ever come to pass"

And then I watched the dishonest figure cooking claiming trillions of dollars and not taking in to account savings from the replacement of existing coverage.

And then I watched Chelsea's ham fisted "Bernie wants to take away your Medicare"

[R B Garr]

91. Aw, this is more of the divisiveness that Bernie fostered. Defending herself against

attacks is a no-no or his supporters get mad and take everything out of context, but only to the extent that it harms Hillary. That kind of dishonesty is probably why millions more voted for Hillary and he lost.

The whole context of that exchange is not black/white as you say. Bernie was dishonest in saying that she was against single payer when you look at how she fought for healthcare literally decades ago. He couldn't get it passed himself.

[Ken Burch]

111. You know perfectly well it was a lie to say Bernie wanted to just get rid of the ACA

And Hillary didn't have to have Chelsea tell people that Bernie was going to repeal the ACA and leave them with nothing just to "defend herself". There was nothing Bernie ever said to her that could possibly have justified that.

It wasn't an attack on the ACA to be fighting to replace it with something better. It would ONLY have been an attack on the ACA if Bernie had JUST called for the ACA to be repealed.

To say he wanted people left without healthcare was a lie. And you stopped him being nominated through that AND through the false claim that he didn't care about racism and didn't WANT the votes of people of color.

Bernie is still owed an apology for that one., and since he's not going to be a candidate for president again, he should GET that apology now.

[R B Garr]

113. Bernie is the one who needs to apologize for making false claims not only

about Hillary but our President, as well. He knowingly led people down the path that he was the only true voice of the people about healthcare when he knew full well that he was unable to get single payer passed in his own state. Not once did he make any meaningful reference to that simple fact. Instead during a debate, he got huffy when asked about single payer failing in Vermont and he blamed it on the governor.

If he couldn't get it passed himself, he has no business maligning others. It was dishonest to present himself as a path blazer and policy leader when he failed to get it done himself. It was dishonest of him to say or imply that Hillary was against single payer when the context of her current position was that it was not viable because of political opposition. Bernie had the same problem, but he knowingly omitted his own struggles for it.

That was a very dishonest tactic that he used to paint other Democrats as sell-outs and imply that they were corrupt and on the take when he, himself, could not even use his influence to push the single payer policy through in Vermont. It was that type of intentional dishonesty and misleading tactics that he should apologize for. It was very divisive.

[Arazi]

140. Bernie is in Congress, not the VT legislature and had no role to play w healthcare there

That's utterly dishonest to smear him with that.

Furthermore, you obviously don't understand economies of scale. VT was too small a state to get UHC successfully implemented. CA is the place to start preferably but nationwide is what it will really take. Bernie always understood that

[R B Garr]

142. He was asked about this in a debate, so it's more than legitimate to expect

him to have an answer for why he is peddling an unrealistic measure such as this and smearing other opponents who merely point out that it is too unrealistic. What is utterly dishonest is for him to be poisoning the minds of young people and gullible people by promoting the notion that Democrats are ignoring their needs and not fighting for benefits like this when he was unable to get it through his wee little state.

I do love how everyone tries to make this personal, which is the exact tactic used when anyone ever, ever, ever dare even question Bernie. It was tedious then and it's tedious now. Bernie remains divisive to this day.

And Bernie is the one peddling the notion for his Revolution that picking up the phone or going to someone's office and revolting is the way to get policy through, while he was unable to get this passed himself.

[Jim Lane]

67. Compare his tactics with Clinton 2008

You say that Bernie "gave Trump and the GOP ready made soundbites". I don't remember the Republican ads that attacked Clinton for opposing single payer. Maybe you have a link?

If you want to see ready-made soundbites for a Republican attack, you might remember a certain infamous "3 a.m. phone call" ad from the Democratic primaries of 2008. The ad attacked Barack Obama. Clips from it were actually used by the Republican candidate in the general election. In case you've forgotten, see "McCain ad returns to Clinton's 3 a.m. phone call" for more information.

The 2016 analogy would be if Bernie had run ads hitting Clinton over Clinton Foundation finances, violation of rules concerning emails, etc. Notably, of course, he didn't.

[R B Garr]

72. 2008, Clinton won the popular vote by most calculations. Bernie never ever had a shot

at winning. Even his wife admits he only stayed in so long in hopes that the FBI would indict Hillary. The whole ethos of his campaign was to paint her into a corner of corruption from which only he could save us.

[Jim Lane]

75. Your characterization of Bernie's campaign is simply false.

"The whole ethos of his campaign was to paint her into a corner of corruption...."? Then give me a link to his ads attacking her over her violations of State Department rules concerning emails or the pay-to-play allegations concerning the Clinton Foundation.

Most politicians would have made extensive use of such themes. Bernie did not.

[R B Garr]

78. Seriously? He couldn't even provide proof of Wall Street execs he would prosecute.

He was asked in a Bloomberg interview to name names and crimes of Wall Street execs he would prosecute and he couldn't do it. Yet his whole campaign was about Wall Street corruption, and Hillary's corruption by association, simply because she was a Senator from New York where Wall Street exists.

He was asked to name a single donor who benefitted directly from donations to Hillary and he was unable.

It was all talking point smears, and the GOP took notice and the real crooked people like Donald ran with his blueprint in maligning her. Now look what we have.

[boston bean]

81. and he had no idea how he would break up big banks, it was in Dodd Frank he said.. another

piece of dem legislation he led people to believe was a sell out to Wall street.

[R B Garr]

83. Oh, yeah! Forgot that one, I'll have to dredge them up now considering this

hostility rearing its head again. That was a yuuuge deal since that's when Saturday Night Live started openly mocking him with that "break em up" skit. He was against big banks, but had no plan. Good reminder!

[Jim Lane]

86. I started to reply to your foolishness but I realized my post would be removed.

You'll just have to continue venting your spleen about the imaginary crimes of Bernie Sanders without further input from me.

Do check out that link about Clinton's campaign tactics, though. It's quite interesting.

[Ken Burch]

112. She ONLY won the popular vote because she actively campaigned in Florida and Michigan

when the party told the candidates they were obligated not to, due to Florida and Michigan having violated party rules by holding their primaries before New Hampshire(as they had no right to do).

Hillary had an obligation to respect the call to stay out of those states, and there was no excuse for her NOT doing so.

[R B Garr]

115. Fact: she was far closer than Bernie ever was. And she won California.

The point being that Bernie was eliminated months before he actually left. Even his wife said they stayed in because they hoped the FBI would hurry up and indict Hillary.

[Ken Burch]

117. It couldn't have served any greater good for Bernie to withdraw earlier.

Hillary would just have moved to the right very quickly and gained no votes in doing so(she'd have taken the exact same vote share on Bill's '92 or '96 platforms or any OTHER set of policies to the right of where she was in the '16 primaries).

[R B Garr]

120. This persistence on maligning her is a bit laughable considering in the real world

she is called a flaming liberal. She is excoriated for her extreme liberalism.

[Ken Burch]

121. I'm NOT maligning her.

I campaigned for her for weeks in the fall.

It's just that I know what her natural instincts are...and it goes without saying that she wouldn't have taken any additional votes in the fall if Bernie had withdrawn earlier and her platform had been more conservative.

There simply weren't any large bloc of votes between her and Trump that she was ever going to get.

[R B Garr]

123. You do keep maligning her, and saying you know what her natural instincts are is

just downright strange. At the very least, you are showing the split logic she had to contend with from all sides, and she shouldn't have had to deal with so many dishonest accusations in her own party's primary. Bernie mainstreamed and normalized the vile attacks on her character, which allowed a true psycho predator like Trump to pick them up and run with them. She couldn't answer them in kind during the primary so as not to alienate Bernie's supporters.

Now look what we have.

But, seriously, she is called a flaming liberal by the GOP.

[aikoaiko]

42. He wanted to fight for medicare for all as President.

Last edited Wed Dec 28, 2016, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)

If the choice is ACA or medicare for all, Bernie chooses medicare for all.

If the choice is ACA or no ACA, then Bernie chooses ACA. Perhaps you may remember that he did vote for it.

Suppose you missed that part of the primary discussion.

Still blaming Bernie I see. These is no need diminish Hillary by blaming Bernie.

[CousinIT]

46. +1 n/t

[delisen]

44. So True. Sanders has Become Clinton. Schumer co-opted by giving him a role in the Party.

So true.

It was easy to stake out unrealistic positions and throw stones while standing outside, and not subject to party discipline. Now he seems to be considering the Art of The Possible. (I hate to call it The Art of The Deal).
I think we actually do need an idealist position though. Is it possible to promote the ideal without throwing stones ?

I supported Clinton and would do so again. I want to support Merkel. She may fall to the New International Aryanism.

From Russia to east and western Europe, across the Atlantic to the US. Even Canada is being probed by Russia because of its claim to the Arctic natural resources.

When Clinton had the nation's attention in the debates she clearly named the alt-right and the Russian interference. I think that if she had not done so the conversation post-election would be different, so much weaker.. She greatly influenced the narrative.

[CousinIT]

45. Of course he does. Given the alternative right now that makes sense.

He wants it saved and eventually changed to Medicare for All. Right now, the main fight is to save the program from Teabagger/Ayn Rand style cuts. So that's what he supports. Would you expect him to be against saving Obamacare? That would not make sense.

[zentrum]

50. HRC accused him of wanting to

……scuttle it and "start from scratch" all during the primaries and if you paid attention to the debates he was adamant every time that he did not mean that. He wanted to convert it into single payer medicare for all.

This is not at all what the OP suggests.

Bernie has not changed. Of course he'll protect Obamacare in the face of a Trump assault. Bernie knows what a dangerous time it is and since we lost the House, the Senate and the Court—he needs to respond accordingly. This doesn't at all mean Bernie has gone soft on his healthcare stance.

Feels like a gratuitous dump on Bernie, IMO.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

59. That's because it is. Thank you for posting the truth.

[boston bean]

73. Umm, then what was the difference between his and her proposals?

Name them.

If he wanted to fix it, and she wanted to fix it, why did he label her a corrupt corporate health insurance company lackey and sell out.

[zentrum]

79. Let's not rewrite history.

For years HRC did not support single payer or the public option or Medicare for all because "too hard". She poo-pooed it. We can't was her mantra.

She only moved left on health care under pressure from Bernie.

From the NYT's during the primary:

“Bernie Sanders’s campaign is having an effect on Hillary Clinton’s policies,” said Steve McMahon, a Democratic political consultant from Purple Strategies. “From a progressive point of view, that’s exactly what was hoped for and that is exactly what is happening.”

He was always for the Medicare for all—she was reluctantly for a little bit more of Medicare sometimes, maybe—and only towards the end when her rallies lacked the enthusiasm his did.

Remind me again why are talking about this ?

[boston bean]

80. So you cannot answer. Got it.

[zentrum]

92. Excuse me?

You wanted to know what was the difference.

Even if HRC had won—single payer, public option, medicare for all was never her platform. It was for Bernie. That. is. the. difference.

If we'd had a candidate who could have kept the Blue Wall intact, and who had coattails and I think we all know that we had a candidate who couldn't do that—we'd have a congress and a court that could allow single payer, public option, medicare for all. And Bernie would have gone for it full-tilt. All out. He'd have fought like hell for it. Not an Obamacare tweak. But a full public option medicare for all.

Now he can only salvage what he can for us. Thank God he's there.

The difference is that he was always for these programs and HRC was only tentatively for them in the last few months. Bernie is reduced to saving Obamacare only because Trump won. Not because that was his secret position all along as you imply.

So you do not do nuance. Or face the situation the election has put us in. You only want to find a non-issue about Bernie Sanders. Got it.

[boston bean]

93. very very principled. forget about single payer, because republicans... but those same ones would

let him have single payer if were president.

It would have been a fight, and he wouldn't have won.

So, what was so wrong with Hillary acknowledging it was a losing fight. He admits it now. He is gonna SAVE Obama care. A day late and a dollar short.

[Raster]

106. So Bean, can we look forward to another Bernie "hit piece" tomorrow?

[zentrum]

130. Exactly.

[zentrum]

108. It's only a losing

Last edited Wed Dec 28, 2016, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

..fight because she lost.

You seem unable to see how different it would be if Bernie were President, or for that matter, what he would do if HRC were President, and Obamacare was not in total jeopardy. You keep leaving out that detail.

But if he'd won or she'd won, he'd be fighting for single payer. From January 21st forward. He'd be pressuring HRC to get it done. He'd be holding her to her newly created campaign promises. And it might have happened. It was not a losing battle if the Blue Wall had not crumbled. If we'd been able to get a liberal court. If, in short, the Democrat had won.

Bernie was showing Democrats how not to be so afraid—how not to begin from a position of "can't". The Repugs never do that. It's part of why they get more and more power.

It seems to really irk you that Bernie is now forced to fight like hell within the limits of the situation this utterly disastrous election has created.

Whatever.

[bravenak]

126. He lost WAY before she lost. And would again in a New York minute. No contest.

[kcr]

95. Let's not rewrite history. Because you're doing a fine job of it yourself, right here.

This is exactly why I'm so totally turned off by him. Bernie has this huge savior complex, and he seems to be pretty good at conning people into believing it. It's pretty amazing.

And then, here he is, saving Obamacare from the evil GOP. After years of smearing Dems for pretty much the same thing. But of course, now that it's HIM doing it, he's a savior! And his fans eat this up.

[Uponthegears]

82. Sometimes

Watching people satsfy their incessant need to attack the person who did not lose to Trump gets tiring.

I missed Hillary's statement regarding Trump's effort to destroy Obama's legacy achievement. Do you have a link to it?

[Warren DeMontague]

107. SANDERS!!!!!!!

[andym]

128. Did he vote for the ACA?

I thought he did.

I just think he wants a better system that is even more affordable. However, the ACA is better than the nothing burger we are going to get after its repeal by the GOP, so it makes sense that he would defend it. It appears to me his main concern is that the consumers of health care can afford treatment, which is still a problem for many even with the ACA.

[Liberty Belle]

129. He knows if Republicans repeal it we will have nothing.

They will never pass medicare for all, only a Democratic majority would consider that.

He is putting a finger in the dike to try and hold it off from breaking and keep healthcare for the poorest Americans for now, until someday when Dems can take back control and replace Obamcare with something better--not nothing at all.

[betsuni]

132. I see the same people who went on and on about how bad incremental change

and compromise like the ACA and a twelve dollar minimum wage were are now praising those things. It's almost like a ... um ... should I say it? ... third way.

[TheBlackAdder]

133. This OP is just more of the same--so much waisted energy. Entering the stalker phase of relationship

[Sienna86]

136. You are implying something else here.

He wanted healthcare for all, but faced with Trump, he will fight for Obamacare to be saved. Much better than the alternative, wouldn't you agree?

Don't blame Bernie for Hilary losing the election.

[TCJ70]

139. "Don't blame Bernie for Hilary losing the election"

Exactly. Adjusting to the situation at hand seems an awful lot like that pragmatism everyone praised Hillary for. Too bad it flies in the face of all the crap they threw at Sanders during the primary. Maybe he isn't the monster he was painted as?

[Arazi]

141. It's just another chance to smear Bernie. SSDD

[baldguy]

137. Sanders wanted to get rid of the ACA & replace it with Medicare For All.

He's getting half his wish.