2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDo you have loved ones who voted for Trump who you KNOW are NOT racists/sexists/bigots?
If so, are you as disgusted and disturbed as I am by the way your loved ones are being falsely accused and labelled as bigots? Are you feeling alienated and discouraged by all the hateful and negative comments being tossed around about voters? I know I am and I doubt that I am alone.
I voted for Hillary because I understand what a vote for Trump would mean. There are some people I know and love very much who are not well versed in politics who, unfortunately, voted for and support Trump. I have known most of these people for over 40 years. I KNOW their hearts and I KNOW that they are not hateful or bigoted people in any way, shape or form. Some of them are gullible and have friends or family who have convinced them that Trump is going to fix things. Some make poor choices in news sources. Most of these people are from northern states. I doubt that I am the only person reading and/or posting here who has friends and family they love very much who voted for Trump. Many of us in this situation have spoken up about these relentless attacks on ALL Trump voters because there are people we KNOW and have known ALL of our lives that are being slandered and labelled unfairly on this forum and it is being allowed. When people on here throw around collective accusations they are stereotyping and calling the loved ones of some members here things that they are NOT. When they call my 85 year old aunt a racist because her rural rust belt neighbors kept talking him up to her and she doesn't really watch TV and doesn't know how to use the internet it's not HER that is being a bigot. When they attack her, they attack my family. I don't know any of those making the false accusations, but I know her and I KNOW she is about as far from a racist as you can get.
These continuous attacks and collectively labeling ALL Trump voters as racists/sexists/bigots are going to turn people off and push them away. If I keep hearing these false accusations and labels being tossed around so carelessly on this site then how am I to trust anything I read here? I KNOW that these assertions are not truthful. Many others know this too. I have a serious issue with liars and those who will slander and libel people in an attempt to intimidate others or to guilt and shame them. That is abusive and not something I can ever support.
I can't be the only one who is just beyond sick of seeing this nonsense.
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libtodeath
(2,888 posts)That was his campaign,so how can one not understand what they were voting for?
Ohioblue22
(1,430 posts)come after her medicare and social security. i dont know how people wouldnt know this . this presidential campaign went on for 18 months
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)We all do that because we are political junkies who make it a point to be informed. That isn't the norm. If it were then no one would have voted for Trump. My aunt fills her days with doing volunteer work in her rust belt community. That woman will help anyone if she's able to. That is how she has lived her entire life. She is one of the kindest, gentlest, most loving, caring and giving human beings ever to walk on this earth. She lives in a rural area decimated by the economy and people are hurting big time. Trump is extremely popular there. We have black, hispanic and LGBT family members that this woman adores and dotes on them all and has for decades. She can barely even operate facebook and never watches TV. She gets her information from the people in her community and her community voted for Trump.
When I hear people attack people like her who simply were ill informed and didn't know any better it really chafes my rear. It's WRONG to falsely accuse people and it needs to stop.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)Every citizen has an obligation to cast an informed vote. Did your aunt ask her black, Hispanic, and gay family members their opinions about the candidates? Or did she privilege the opinions of her white straight acquaintances more?
In any case, if your aunt can't use the internet then she's not reading DU.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)of the American public with their cooked-up news and lies for over a century. They are now
reaping their evil rewards.
I sometimes question the oft-repeated phrase "Crime Doesn't Pay." It so often does pay -- and
the rewards are often huge. Countless millions are voting for the Corporations (both Republicans
and Democrats) and these are good, decent people with no special interest in politics. Not
everyone can be expected to be interested in politics, just as not everyone can be interested in
mathematics or history, or religion...etc... . I have a good friend with a doctorate. She has
avoided politics all her life. It simply bores her no end. These people can't be bothered to find
out accurate news for themselves. My friend does not vote. But many of these people are simply
voting from what they have heard from their families all their lives, just so that they can get their
civic duty off their minds.
Yes, unfortunately, the above can and does go on from generation to generation.
Corporations know how to make good use of the above natural quality of a large fraction of human
beings, and Corporate people know how to work hard at it. It pays them extremely well!!!
brutus smith
(685 posts)Did she vote for trump and not Jill Stein?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)unless they are political junkies.
You can't assume that average people follow politics as closely as those here do.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)And people hang out with their friends and believe the things that the people they respect tell them.
They might not even know of the worst things Trump has said or done.
They are not all bad people.
BainsBane
(54,728 posts)A vote for Stein, Johnson or anyone but Clinton enabled Trump's white supremacist agenda. They are every bit as bad as the deplorables, actually worse. They chose to turn the country over to a sexual predator who ran on hatred for Mexicans, Muslims, and African Americans. They decided they were more comfortable seeing the candidate endorsed by the KKK be elected than vote for a Democrat with a detailed set of progressive policies. They chose White Male Supremacy and decided the well being of the nation, particularly the subaltern far more vulnerable than themselves, were less consequential than their egos. They may have deliberately sought to punish the subaltern for failing to vote for their candidate. Regardless, they are worse than the deplorables because they willingly enabled fascism. Fascism is as fascism does.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)Even people who deliberately voted for Trump, knowing his agenda, did it because they thought it would make the country better., even though their idea of "better" is horribly fucked up. People who voted for Stein or Johnson just did it to make themselves feel good and didn't give a good goddamn about the welfare of the country or the world.
brutus smith
(685 posts)who voted for Stein and they are not "deplorable".
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)Aside from voting for someone who is herself utterly unqualified to run the country, anyone who knew that a Donald Trump presidency would be a disaster for the country and the world, and didn't vote for Hillary Clinton, helped Trump win, or at best, didn't care if he won or not. And all because of their precious ego and "conscience".
Yes, that's deplorable. I have a white-hot rage for the self-indulgent idiots who handed the entire government over to Trump and the Republicans by voting for Stein or Johnson.
brutus smith
(685 posts)For not "falling in line".
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)for characterizing the complete opposition of Donald Trump in that way.
brutus smith
(685 posts)Even if every Stein voter would have voted for Hillary she still wouldn't have won. We need to concentrate on the Dems who didn't vote at all. BTW, I voted against trump for Hillary. We had a flawed candidate in Ohio, Strickland, who for one should have never run because he was Gov during the bad times in Ohio. Repubs had all kinds things to throw at him. Like it or not Hillary was a flawed candidate. We need to stop coronating candidates even before the primary. Let it play out.
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 30, 2016, 03:19 PM - Edit history (1)
"Hillary was a flawed candidate" doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. It means zero. Every candidate is flawed. Obama was flawed. Sanders was flawed. Part of her "flawed" nature was that she was a woman, and that there were people who would never vote for her simply for that reason, while they would have if she had been a man. Should she not have been offered as a candidate because of that disadvantage? The Republicans poisoned the electorate against her with a decades-long smear campaign. Should we have let them eliminate a candidate we wanted in that way? The Russians and the FBI also tried to damage her, and she still won the popular vote by millions. She lost the election only because of anachronism of the Electoral College. Exactly how much better and more qualified should she have been?
brutus smith
(685 posts)to trump voters. They had an outlet to not vote for him.
Amishman
(5,795 posts)Only one cousin actually seems racist (hates Hispanics)
Ohioblue22
(1,430 posts)internet savy or not. if they are so uninformed and dont bother to get informed they ought to refrain from voting.
people are surprised by those closest to them you dont always know the stuff people hide from you.
you say you know what a trump presidency would mean did you talk to you aunt about what a trump presidency would mean?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I've known this woman over 50 years. She doesn't hide anything. She is so good of a person that she assumes everyone else is as well, so she is prone to believing what she is told by people she personally knows.
I don't live anywhere near her and she's not online very much. She seriously spends all of her time helping others with other elderly women. Trump is a good marketer and he doesn't mind lying to and misleading people. Many here are also missing one crucial fact that applies to people voting for Trump....many of those who voted for him just do NOT trust or believe the press. If people don't trust or believe what is reported about Trump then no matter how much is reported about him, those people just won't believe it.
CrispyQ
(38,176 posts)where politics is often discussed. And the ones who watch the MSM are still getting a right-slanted world view. Profit has corrupted all of our major institutions. This country is so under GOP rule, we'll be lucky to get the boot off our neck.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)Ignoring and the excusing atrocious votes made by wrongly informed relatives isn't going to help change anything.
Maybe we should be more righteously indignant, not less.
"You voted for Trump? How could you?!"
Throd 2.0
(62 posts)Only one (uncle Dennis, I'm looking at you) would I consider an actual racist.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)But other than that none of them are what they are being labelled as. There is one friend who would definitely fall under the "don't trust or believe the media" and who I would not call a straight up racist, but she definitely has some subconscious biases.
StevieM
(10,539 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)racist, sexist, bigots they are so comfortable with racism, misogyny, and bigotry they are indistinguishable from racist, sexist, bigots.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I want people who are making this claim to start backing it up with facts.
Go back and read what you said. Unless you know all Trump voters you can't make claims about them. Certainly there are some who would fall under that label. Be angry with Trump. Be angry with people who voted for them. Be angry about the hate crimes. Be angry about all the awful things we now all have to worry about.
But please...please stop stereotyping. It's not OK, even if it's directed at people who voted for an orange asshole.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)made no secret of his bigotry and misogyny throughout the campaign. Voting for him is showing approval of that. I don't have to know all the Trump voters I know what Trump is and that tells me what a person has to be to vote for him. If you want to give the enablers of Fuckface Von Clownstick cover that''s your prerogative, but I will not.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)If you don't know all of them then you can't truthfully claim anything about ALL of them. So, if you cannot provide the proof then your claim is false. Please stop making false claims.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)false claims is of no consequence to me. I have read what you posted here and your argument doesn't hold water. If a person votes for such an open racist as Trump by that very act they are racist I don't need to meet them to know that. One becomes a racist by doing racist things voting for Trump is one of those things.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Despite the fact that you don't know even the tiniest fraction of those people, you are asserting that you know what their motivations were when they cast their vote? And when I say that your assertion is false you say it holds no water? How much water does stereotyping over 61 million Americans hold? Since I personally KNOW people that prove your assertion wrong I think the facts are on my side.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)are racist. The Implicit Association Test shows that we all harbor such prejudice. I felt bad about myself when I took it, but I had been shown the test by a black man I worked with and he scored almost the same as I.
You can do back flips all day to come to whatever conclusion you like, but a vote for Trump is a vote to enable open racism. You seem to think that intent makes one racist or not. Doing racist things makes you a racist regardless of your intent. Voting for Donald Trump is a racist act.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)One has a very purposeful and conscious intent (bigotry) and bias/prejudice is usually subconscious and closely tied to institutional bias. That can be fixed but not if people are divisive by unfairly accusing people of being actual bigots.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)seems to be a big chunk of where we disagree. I don't see the need for a bigot to have the intention of being a bigot before they can be such. I'm also not big on guarding the feelings of people who's actions endanger other people.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)That's the whole point. To be a bigot is to be intolerant or to hate. You can't hate or be intolerant without being conscious of it.
You're confusing bigotry with bias and they are NOT the same thing.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)to be a bigot is act in a bigoted way. Why don't you have a look at what Afromania had to say and answer that? Maybe you have the luxury of waiting until you really get to know what's in a persons heart before you think them a racist or bigot or misogynist, but if it is you who is bearing the brunt of it you don't.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)You said, "All you have to do to be a bigot is act in a bigoted way."
big·ot·ed
ˈbiɡədəd/
adjective
having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
"a bigoted group of reactionaries"
Based on your own explanation of what you define a bigot to be there are a lot of people on this very thread who would meet your requirements.
You may want to take a few minutes and look at the different definitions of the terms being used.
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)By that definition, people who adamantly believe that all people should be treated equally, regardless of race, and who refuse to tolerate the opposing belief, are bigots.
Wherever you dredged that definition up, it's garbage.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)eom
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)
dionysus
(26,467 posts)I saw in passing on TV, i wouldn't have known how bad he was. Lots of low info voters out there. Theyre either too busy, or just dont care.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)They may not be racist misogynists, but Donald Trump is and they voted for him anyway.
i don't know or care what's in their hearts - but I do care that they knowingly aligned themselves with Nazis and the kKK and other racists and bigots to vote against my interests and the interests of other minorities and put a bigot into the White House.
They don't get a pass because they supposedly "didn't know any better" ...
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)otohara
(24,135 posts)
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)eom
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)Do they regret their choice at all? Or are they still totally on board with what he says and does, despite anything anyone has told them?
By their deeds shall ye know them.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Then you are an enemy of all decent people everywhere.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
I can't be the only one who's sick of hearing this awful shit defended.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)I didnt know isnt an excuse.
OrwellwasRight
(5,210 posts)Hmmm, that sounds awfully absolutist to me.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)You god dam betcha!
bowens43
(16,064 posts)bigots who don't even suspect that they are bigots.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Plenty of people are insensitive and say careless and thoughtless things without even realizing it, and certainly without any ill intent.
Intent MATTERS where this type of issue is concerned. I have seen people who spoke out against racism, sexism and bigotry quite vehemently say insensitive things before when they meant well. It happens. When people who misspeak with no ill intentions are treated like David Duke it causes very deep hurt and often resentment. That's the biggest problem in race relations right now. That combined with institutional biases ingrained into society.
We should choose our battles more wisely. Attacking non-racists only chases away would be supporters and the focus needs to be on the institutional racism because that is what is really harmful.
LonePirate
(13,882 posts)However, they decided that his bigotry and sexism were not things that should disqualify him for the job. In effect, they tolerated and enabled those qualities in him by giving him the largest platform in the world - the US presidency.
Should those of us who voted blue remain silent towards those non-bigots who effectively enabled and approved of his bigotry? Should members of our party who were the subjects and victims of his hate simply forgive and forget when it comes to those who elected someone who actively spoke out against them?
I find it interesting how Dems are supposed to be more empathetic towards blue collar rust belt voters and the bigots who voted for him; but they somehow receive a free pass for having no empathy for urban or white collar voters and non-bigots? Forgive me for not wanting to play nice with anyone who expects only Dems to travel Empathy Avenue.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)And calling ALL Trump voters racists/bigots/sexists or assuming they are OK with those things is dishonest and untruthful. No one can truthfully say what is being said by some here because they don't know all people who voted for Trump. People who keep repeating this false accusations are lying, and they KNOW that they are doing so. I just don't understand why so many of the members here are OK with either repeating a lie or going along with it while at the same time attacking everyone who voted for Trump as either being a bigot or being complicit to bigotry.
Why the hell were Democrats NOT more effective in countering Trump's lies in the rust belt? We all know Trump is a POS! Those people that voted for Trump were not given a good enough reason to vote FOR Democrats. That's what it boils down to and continuously attacking those voters who were not properly reached won't change the outcome of the election. It WILL, however, guarantee the same damn outcome next time around if nothing is learned and the voters are just blamed.
LonePirate
(13,882 posts)I see very little distinction between Red Voter A saying "He's a bigot and I like that so he has my vote" and Red Voter B saying "He's a bigot and I don't like that but he has my vote anyway."
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)If people who supported him think the press is unfairly attacking him and lying about him they aren't going to listen to anything they say about him. They may not even watch or read the news and may get their information from friends who tell things in a slanted way.
Any number of explanations exist and are going to be true of some people. It's careless and irresponsible to stereotype and that is what is being done about those Trump voters. It's just got to stop. It's not productive and it alienates people.
LonePirate
(13,882 posts)If they don't want to believe the media, then have them talk to their friends, neighbors, co-workers and family members to find out why they believe he is a bigot. We don't owe them anything. If you lie down with dogs, don't be surprised if you wake with fleas, as some say.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)So, those who do NOT support Trump have a decision to make. Do they continue to misdirect their anger and attack half of Americans and set themselves up to lose from now on or do they figure out WHY their message isn't reaching those voters and fix it so it doesn't happen again?
LonePirate
(13,882 posts)Might we persuade the uninformed voters and the economically stressed voters who voted for him? Maybe. Maybe not. We can definitely make in-roads with the uninformed if we get our message to them. As for the economic voters, that's a coin toss. Our candidate had realistic plans to help them. They opted for the fantasy spun by the con man. If you're the house giving out carrot sticks on Halloween, it's tough to compete with the house giving out chocolate.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Even though she really was a great candidate...she took the rust belt for granted, and they blamed the Clintons for trade and job losses. For that reason Clinton needed to be hands on in those states and she didn't do enough there. Hindsight is 20/20, but she could have done more there.
A great many of Trump's voters would be easy enough to win over.
This is especially true with northern rural voters...they don't have a problem with the social justice agenda as long as other policies don't infringe upon their way of life and they can support their family.
1. Be VERY clear and LOUD that Dems aren't going to take away guns.
2. Get high speed internet to rural areas that lack jobs and give incentives to companies that hire people to work from home to hire people from those areas with highest unemployment.
3. Allow people to buy in to Medicaid on a sliding scale based on their income to fix Obamacare.
4. Infrastructure investment.
LonePirate
(13,882 posts)Amishman
(5,795 posts)It doesn't impact their life, they don't see its effects, to them it just doesn't matter.
It is as distant to them as the near extinction of the Socorro Dove. Try to talk to them about it, and they will zone out just like we might when stuck with that cousin who will only talk about baseball. And even if you can get them to really listen, it still won't be real - because they didn't live it or see it.
Screaming that every Trump voter is a bigot just creates a sense that they are under attack for who they are. It makes racial/cultural hate real to them... And they feel they are the victim! Definitely counter productive.
This broad brush labelling of rural America and/or Trump voters is inherently divisive and deepens the divide. It also could easily turn off those who sat out the election. To have not voted this election means either the stakes were not high enough for that person to care or they were so repulsed by both sides that they could not support anyone. The former category is a lost cause; if this election won't motivate them, nothing will. The latter category won't be enticed by negativity and drama.
Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Original post)
CountAllVotes This message was self-deleted by its author.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)The extremes on the right will endorse and vote for the right, and the extremes on the left will endorse and vote for the left.
I'm very anti-communist, but the fact that our party harbors a few now and then doesn't stop me from supporting it.
Trump is awful, but most people in the Republican party don't support the KKK.
titaniumsalute
(4,742 posts)He is a Mennonite and has NEVER been involved in politics. He was even a Conscientious Objector during Vietnam. Not only did he register to vote for his first time ever and then he voted for Trump.
Is he a racist? I've never heard him say anything racist and his oldest daughter is married to a black man with two milano children. He certainly doesn't seem to have a problem with them.
I haven't asked him why he voted the way he did. He hates conflict (like my wife does) so it probably wouldn't go well if I asked. He's religious so how in the world would he vote for this asshole? Maybe his church told him too. I have no idea.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)That's a term I've never heard.
marybourg
(13,174 posts)Milan. But I think the poster meant the obsolete term "mulatto". Nowadays we usually say bi-racial.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Curious.
Pepperidge Farm makes a great Milano cookie though!
titaniumsalute
(4,742 posts)Yes mulatto or bi-racial.
titaniumsalute
(4,742 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Some religious people are really swayed by that issue. Some churches do tell members who the church endorses. That may have been it or it could be people in his community.
titaniumsalute
(4,742 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)That Dems should not be making excuses for their support of an obviously bigoted pig. If they didn't know, then they are dangerous fools.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I'd like names, please.
From now on if anyone tries to group all Trump voters into one group and label them I'm going to to ask for sources.
Stereotyping groups of people (even groups you don't like) is unacceptable.
Squinch
(52,594 posts)NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)People keep repeating obviously DISHONEST claims about an entire group of people. Unless they know every person who voted for Trump then they clearly do NOT know what motivated those people to vote the way they did.
I'm sick of watching this repeated because it's simply not true and it's not helpful or productive.
Squinch
(52,594 posts)NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Nice job trying to gaslight me, though. Won't work.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Nothing honest or progressive about that RW nonsense.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)And second...stereotyping is about making assumptions about an entire group of people based on nothing other than the fact that they belong to a specific group. They are two entirely different things. Based on your comment I suspect you may not truly understand what is and what is not racism/sexism/bigotry. There are THREE different things you may be getting confused.
Racism/Sexism/Bigotry is intolerance/hatred/thinking you are better than others who belong to a specific group.
Stereotyping is attributing traits or making assumptions about and labeling entire groups of people simply because they belong to a given group.
Institutional Bias is what leads to things like young unarmed black men getting shot by police. This is not usually conscious or intended but is deeply ingrained into society and NEEDS to be focused on because it's a HUGE problem. Unfortunately too many people confuse this issue with racism/sexism/bias and toss out accusations towards people who would actually SUPPORT resolving this issue that nothing ever gets done to fix it. Bias is not something done consciously. That would be actual racism/sexism/bigotry.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And not a very new one. That seems to have whooshed over your head completely in your rush to "educate" me.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)You are ASSUMING that over 60 Million Americans are either bigots or support bigotry with absolutely NO proof or evidence to support your claim.
If you called out an INDIVIDUAL that you actually KNOW based on facts and not some stereotype then your argument would have merit.
Every person who is making assumptions about Trump voters is stereotyping.
Definition: A stereotype is “...a fixed, over generalized belief about a particular group or class of people.” (Cardwell, 1996).
For example, a “hells angel” biker dresses in leather.
One advantage of a stereotype is that it enables us to respond rapidly to situations because we may have had a similar experience before.
One disadvantage is that it makes us ignore differences between individuals; therefore we think things about people that might not be true (i.e. make generalizations).
http://www.simplypsychology.org/katz-braly.html
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Anyone who knows anything about his policies at all
Knows the biggest ones he pushed were getting rid of brown people- whether they be Mexicans or Muslim ex and yes that makes him a bigot - and they supporters of bigotry. Don't give a fuck if it hurts their feelings.
Those who support bigotry ARE bigots. And no, that's not harsher than the bigotry itself - no one but selfish white people think that way.
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)ISN'T stereotyping. The people being condemned here are not being condemned "on nothing other than the fact that they belong to a specific group." They are being condemned for what they DID and for what they actively and enthusiastically SUPPORT.
blue cat
(2,438 posts)Go ahead and believe what you will. I've heard a lifetime of racism, too many names to name.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)of voters are racists. That's simply not honest or truthful. Say some, say many...just don't say all because you don't know. I'm doing this to try to help. This labeling and stereotyping is not productive or helpful. It will actually end up harming things if it doesn't stop.
blue cat
(2,438 posts)It is most of Trump voters that are racist. Trump started out as a birther...isn't that clearly racist?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Many are likely at least somewhat biased, with the majority of those being subconsciously biased.
To be honest, I am not even sure that Trump himself is a racist or a bigot. He's an idiot narcissistic attention whore who likes to stir up as much shit as he can. That I'm certain of. He definitely attracted all the racist asshats, too. Trump talks out of his asshole just like he's always done. I think even most of his supporters know that about him. Hell, I think a good portion of his voters only voted for him because they want to see him make an ass out of himself and piss people off. He just likes being offensive and talk trash to get attention.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And that only concerns the most outrageous claims. If asked about the existence of white privilege or institutionalized racism, you can be sure virtually every Trump supporter would deny the existence of those realities.
Trump is a blatant misogynist and has directly engaged in housing discrimination long before he ever ran for office. And you question whether or not he's a bigot? Seriously? You seem to be one of those folks who thinks a person is only a bigot if they're a KKK member or neo-nazi.
No white robe and pointy hat? No swastika? Must not be a bigot.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)even worse, IMO, if he wasn't personally racist himself.
He's clearly a sexist douchebag, so being racist alwo wouldn't surprise me.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)in a very long time. That it has far fewer recommendations than it should says everything about how misguided so many posters are when it comes to facing the reality that falsely labeling all Trump voters as terrible people is only going to scare many of them away for good and make our chances of winning in the future all that much harder.
The sooner that everyone realizes that the OP is spot on, the sooner everyone can stop with the bullshit labeling that runs rampant around here with so many people.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I used to be surprised at the hypocrisy of certain posters, but I'm not anymore.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)That they are doing the same thing they are claiming to be so opposed to. Labeling and stereotyping all Trump voters is also bigotry.
It's OK to be angry and hurt and scared.
It's even OK to be pissed at people who voted for Trump, whatever their reasons may be.
What's NOT OK is being dishonest and untruthful through stereotyping people you don't even know based on who they voted for. There is absolutely NOTHING Democratic about that.
Saying, "I'm really pissed at Trump voters for voting for this racist pile of crap! I don't understand why they would do it! What were they thinking?" is OK.
Saying, "F#(k those white blue collar workers that voted for Trump. They're all racist pieces of shit anyway!" is NOT OK.
We are seeing too much of the second example and not enough of the HEALTHY expression of anger, pain, frustration and fear.
Time to get HEALTHY and HEAL...and fight that Orange Asshole the entire way!
Save the ire for him and leave the voters alone. They'll learn the hard way soon enough and learn their lesson.
Trump won't last long either way...I'll be shocked if he makes it 6 months before getting impeached.
Response to mtnsnake (Reply #17)
yardwork This message was self-deleted by its author.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)BainsBane
(54,728 posts)Before I enable white male supremacy. It matters not one bit what is "in their hearts." Their votes gave Trump's white supremacist agenda power over the country. People are responsible for their actions, regardless of what they claim their motives are. They chose an agenda based on racism over one based on unity and equality. They decided they preferred it, and post election polling shows the one commonality among Trump voters is how they see non-whites, whereas on every other issue they vary enormously.
It is unfortunate that some are so eager to normalize votes for Trump's agenda rather than directing attention to the millions of voters disenfranchised from this past election. As long as members of political elite and their supporters continue to prioritize white Republicans over disenfranchised voters of color and voting rights more generally, the county will only continue to move closer toward white supremacy and even fascism. The sad thing is that justice is easily discarded when politicians feel their political fortunes linked to a white electorate.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)They were appalled by his racist and sexist rhetoric to the point of not voting for him in the Primary. Cruz won here in Maine.
But once it became clear that Trump was going to be their nominee, they felt they had no choice. It was either Trump or WWIII in their opinion. That, and the TPP were the 2 biggest concerns I heard from them.
SidDithers
(44,249 posts)Then they're fucking idiots.
Sid
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
Vaht?
SidDithers
(44,249 posts)
Sid
dionysus
(26,467 posts) NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Some of my relatives and friends are from Maine as well.
onecaliberal
(35,720 posts)Many of those take the attitude that trumpolicy won't affect them so they really do not care.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Many of his supporters don't take his words literally, but more figuratively.
I have relatives who were also deeply hurt and scared over him being elected, so I have been able to see both sides of it. What is especially upsetting is seeing Trump voting family members who genuinely LOVE those who feel scared not realizing how much of a deep impact their vote would have on people they love. One minority family member no longer feels welcome or wanted by those family members because of how they voted, yet those Trump voting relatives never wanted to make anyone feel that way, especially anyone they love.
Trump, in typical narcissistic fashion has taken a huge, stinky dump all over this country and families have been destroyed because of him. Hearts have been broken on all sides.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)minority family think the family members that voted for Trump are not racist? Does the effect of their vote change if they are not thought of as racist?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)But they are very hurt that those family members didn't think of them when they cast their votes. They don't feel welcome or wanted anymore. There has been permanent damage done due to this election that I don't think will ever be mended. Those Trump voters honestly had no idea how badly they would hurt other family members with their vote. It's been awful.
mcar
(43,451 posts)They may not be those things but they have enabled them.
I know people in my very red FL county who voted for Twitler. They told me they chose to overlook the racism, sexism, admissions of assault, inciting of violence, etc, because they wanted "a businessman," or to "drain the swamp."
I tell them they cannot separate the man's words and actions. Ignoring them is enabling his bigotry and hate.
Response to mcar (Reply #22)
CountAllVotes This message was self-deleted by its author.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,894 posts)I have refrained from labeling Trump voters misogynist racists, but their vote enables his bigotry and hate. It normalizes the behavior and beliefs and makes them seem more acceptable. Anyone needs proof of that, just read the news. How many hateful attacks and vandalism incidents have their been since November 09?
radical noodle
(8,491 posts)She isn't racist or sexist. She is also not uninformed. She's a librarian; a reader. She read Art of the Deal years ago when it was a best seller. She tends to like self-help books that deal with life and life issues. She had also read Ben Carson's books and had said in the past that she would vote for him for president. Then she saw Carson in the debates and didn't like his demeanor. Because she'd read Trump's book, she thought all his bluster and attacks were for show... to get attention. I tried my best but could not make her see that he was a con man. It's all a game to him, she thought. Even if he is conning people, she wants that sort of dealing with things (as in his book) for our country. She's a moderate. She does lean Republican (she lives in Indiana so that's not unusual) but she thinks more like an independent. She was all on board with Hillary since 2007, and she voted for Obama in 2008 but not in 2012 (she would have voted for Obama in 2012 if he had picked Hillary for VP instead of Biden who she doesn't like). The RW talking points about Hillary got to her. She admitted Hillary was impressive. She had always liked her, but when some Democrats started dissing Hillary she thought it must be true. Btw, she thought Bernie was like everyone's crazy uncle and didn't care for him either.
It's one of my biggest regrets that I couldn't make her see him for what he is, but I also knew that her vote in Indiana for Hillary would mean nothing because Trump was bound to win there.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)... she is Serbian. She is mad at the Clintons for the bombing of Serbia. I can't fault her for that even though I agree with Bill's policy there.
bullimiami
(13,984 posts)
redstatebluegirl
(12,474 posts)My pain management specialist, has been taking care of me for over 10 years,we have become friends. I found out during this election she supported Trump. She put it out on her social media page and got some serious push back even though we live in a red state. She seemed confused that everyone wasn't behind her on this.
Our town is a college town, yes it is Trump territory but less so than other parts of this awful state. She has since deleted most of those awful posts. I think in truth, you don't really know someone, this election has opened my eyes to some people I didn't really know.
50 Shades Of Blue
(10,887 posts)There is no other way to slice it.
no_hypocrisy
(48,687 posts)My sister voted for Donald Trump and admits it, albeit not bragging about it either.
My sister is a lot of things that I take issue with, going back to childhood.
But she isn't racist, sexist, or a bigot against any particular group (ethnic or otherwise).
She simply is intellectually lazy and not curious about many relevant facts. While on Facebook, I post items about Trump, republicans, fascism, women's rights, civil rights, BLM, Israel/Palestine, etc., she posts exclusively about lost dogs. That's where her head's out. She isn't against democrats but she isn't for them either. Totally apolitical.
And my guess as she had a vacuum of information on November 8, she turned to her husband and good friend, both of whom made a case for Trump, and it was that easy, to adopt their positions instead of thinking it through.
Of course I'm dismayed for a multitude of reasons. First, her vote has contributed to the election of Trump and the precarious future of our democracy. Second, it was hypocritical as she and her husband are Jews and there's been quite an uptick in anti-Semitism since the Election; not to mention, she had an abortion at a young age, and who knows how much longer abortion (and birth control) will remain legal after Trump takes office. Third, she didn't take the time to think things out before she made a choice. Not her choice. A choice.
delisen
(6,440 posts)Corrupt: having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
some synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, nefarious
Conned: persuaded to do or believe something, typically by use of a deception
jalan48
(14,352 posts)racists, sexists, bigots.
Sancho
(9,100 posts)but if you live in SC or NC, you don't really see how valueless and condescending you are until you live somewhere else.
It's like Archie Bunker - you can rationalize anything if your mind is closed.
Jamie Mayfield
(11 posts)So I know this, that everyone on my mother's side of my family voted for Trump and that they are all horrible humans who are racist and who I will never allow my children to engage with. Sure they seem like nice Christians who live in small, rural America, but I grew up hearing what those pieces of human shit say when the doors are closed. My mother voted for that man and I made it very clear that she was no longer to ever come to my home or feel that she is welcome to speak to me. As far as I am concerned, the bitch is dead, as well as all of the rest of her family. You want to think they are good because you love them, but how many times did I hear them use the n-word, how many times did I hear them justify their hate, how many times did I listen to their explanations for why women earn less? I am tired of being told to love those who deserve nothing but my disgust. I have no love for my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, cousins, grandfather, etc. because they have no love for anyone else. They are selfish pigs, they make me ashamed of who I am. I don't want them in my life, I don't want my children to ever know they ever existed. When I start my family, I will tell them that they are dead, that I have no mother, no grandparents, no cousins. My sweet, little old great aunt is not sweet, she is a racist, my elderly grandfather who can only afford to send me a $10 gift card for Christmas after years of hard work is not a man I admire, he is the one who called the president a monkey, a n-word, and raved at the local news about how those damn n-words where killing all the good white people and they should all be hung from a tree in-front of my brother-in-law who has a black brother and sister. My Trump supporting family will all tell you they are not racist, that they did it for taxes or for jobs, but in reality, they did it because they are fucking disgusting. They support Trump because they want to treat minorities and women like shit, they want to feel superior, when in reality, they are the lowest form of human life.
I hear what you are saying, but there is no excuse. Everyone knows what Trump is and what he means, they knew. Racist or not, I will not accept the argument of ignorance.
The Polack MSgt
(13,422 posts)SidDithers
(44,249 posts)They voted for a bigot.
Sid
Raster
(20,999 posts)...that did NOT vote for tRump. They voted AGAINST Clinton.
hamsterjill
(15,501 posts)By the very fact that they voted for Trump. Their vote for him, as opposed to a vote against him, meant that they supported his racism, sexism and bigotry, or giving them the absolutely best benefit of the doubt that I can muster, it mean that they were complacent in the fact that Trump was (openly) racist, sexist, bigot. There is NO way in hell that in this day of media availability there was ANYONE left on the face of the earth, much less in America, who did not know what Donald Trump was preaching. Willful ignorance is not an excuse.
If my opinion offends someone, then my apologies. But I'll not back down.
We aren't going to push people away that aren't already firmly against us anyway. Stating the truth is still stating the truth. It is going to be up to those people who voted for Trump to LEARN from their mistakes and come to us if they are willing. I think after four years of Trump and his policies, we very well may be surprised. I don't know. American may very well have reached a point of no return.
That's the way I see it, and I'm not likely to change my mind.
MFM008
(19,998 posts)none, the ones that do dont get spoken to.
Tikki
(14,795 posts)Tikki
blue cat
(2,438 posts)I'm sick and tired of ❄️ getting upset about the ugly truth.
Squinch
(52,594 posts)...and no. I don't know anyone who voted for Trump who isn't sexist or racist.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Your psychic abilities suck ass.
Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #75)
Post removed
yardwork
(64,109 posts)Throd 2.0
(62 posts)Couldn't remember my e-mail address from back then so I had to re-register after the hack.
George II
(67,782 posts)Squinch
(52,594 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)With a different candidate, we have a good chance of winning them back in 2020.
And we have to look hard at 2018. It's really important.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)marybourg
(13,174 posts)and speak to frequently. I can attest to her tolerant and generous spirit and good works. I've never known her to have a bad word for anyone or anything. Except for President Obama and his works. What we know about tRump she simply does not believe. She believes things about Pres. Obama that we know are not true.
Why? My understanding of why is that as soon as she and her husband come into the house they turn on Fox and keep it on for all the hours they are at home and awake, although I know they're not constantly watching. The tiny bits I see of Fox in the gym, mostly the rolling banners, always show any news involving the President slanted to make it seem bad, and repeated over and over. I've never seen anything about any Publican shown in a negative light.
Why they're so addicted to Fox? I can only think that it's gratifying to them in some way. I've read that right wingers have more fears and resentments than liberals and that the right wing media caters to those emotions. I do think that a lot of what goes on in running the country and the written and unwritten rules that keep America's complex society running are a mystery to them. But they're a mystery to most people, progressives included.
So I think there's a certain amount of feeling powerless, and Fox gives them simple bad-people and good-people explanations they can cling to.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)They may be sweet and kind to your face, but they wouldn't keep that channel on all day long if they didn't agree with the most vile bigotry imaginable. Beware your neighbor. She's the type who will let you down when ethics counts.
Some people are good at the show.
marybourg
(13,174 posts)It not the same as yours.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)If your neighbors watch Fox News every day because they're scared, that doesn't make them any less bigoted.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)You really need to look at intent because it matters. Racists/Bigots actually know they are being bigots and intend to be. While fear can be part of the reason, hate or a sense of superiority usually is right up there too.
Then there is bias, which is often subconscious without any ill will or bad intent. This is extremely important because it's the key to fixing race relations once and for all. The worst and most harmful thing to do with cases of bias is to call it bigotry because it's NOT. They are two entirely different things.
People who are biased don't usually mean to be. They may do or say things that are insensitive without even realizing it. These people just need to be educated but they won't be open to it if they keep getting called racists/etc.
Institutional bias is deeply ingrained into the social institutions of this country, is based on fear and leads to an unfair legal system, young black men being shot when they are not even armed, etc.
brutus smith
(685 posts)These people already have it in them. They feel very comfortable in their feelings when they watch fox. Smile in your face, backstabers.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,894 posts)and watched it for what I thought was news. Pretty shortly found it unsettling. A couple of months later, I realized I was unsettled because they were vile bigots and liars. I continue to be confounded that people buy their shit hook, line, and sinker when it seems so obviously propaganda. I can't imagine stomaching it unless you're already predisposed to their frames and viewpoints.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Some people on this site just refuse to recognize any anecdotal evidence anyone gives. Hell, I shared my personal story of domestic abuse against myself and my children and someone on here actually implied I was lying just because my example provided evidence that opposed their position on a subject. Sometimes people on the left are way more closed minded than those on the right. As a moderate it can be so infuriating to see such extremism on both ends.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,894 posts)are indeed bigots and/or sexists. They don't think they are, but they've made comments to me that indicate they most certainly hold those beliefs even if they don't acknowledge them. It's kind of creepy actually.
In my case, I'm simply flabbergasted seemingly decent people didn't bother to do due diligence and voted anyway. That's just not acceptable in a representative democracy. I may seem hard-lined about that, but look what willful ignorance and lack of critical thinking skills handed us. People who don't have the inclination to wade through obvious bullshit are just as dangerous as the bigots and the sexists.
I don't care how nice they are, they fucked up big time and we all will suffer the consequences. I'm not going to call them names, but I am damn well holding them culpable. They exercised a choice, they own it. Shame on them whether they are bigoted, stupid, oblivious, sexist, apathetic, or whatever.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)I am certain that the sweet little old aunts and neighbors who are being referenced here were taught the same in school. I'm middle aged and grew up in the heartland, and it was drummed into me from a young age that being an American carried responsibilities and obligations, like becoming informed about the candidates and issues before casting a vote.
My high school civics teacher - who was a highly patriotic man terrified of communism (we disagreed about almost everything) would have been appalled at the suggestion that it was fine to vote based on what you read on Facebook.
Seriously, people were raised better than that, at least in the Midwest.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,894 posts)Middle aged here as well. I was an army brat and went to school in three regions of the US and on European army bases. Responsible citizenship was always a component of my education, and my upbringing.
Funny. My high school civics teacher and I clashed constantly because he was a Reagan fan and I was most definitely not. If he's still alive, I'm sure he's aghast at the level of willfully ignorant voters.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)People can be insensitive and say things that are biased without having ill will. Racism and bigotry is purposeful and intended. Bias is more subconscious and unless someone speaks up and points out it is wrong they may not even realize it. That is exactly why I am being very loud about this issue here because stereotyping all Trump voters is just as wrong as stereotyping anyone else and I point this shit out no matter WHERE I see it.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,894 posts)racism, bigotry, bias, and discrimination. I have to bite my tongue when the word "racist" is used in place of "bigot" with so much frequency. No confusion. These people are bigots plain and simple.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)People disagree; demonizing people who have been supporters in the recent past is not a good strategy.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)winning the next one.
Unless, of course, you believe that Trump is going to be a big whomping success. If so, I don't know what you are doing here.
I think you have got it exactly backwards. Talking about issues is a very different thing from announcing that all Trump voters are deplorables who should be marooned on ice floes and sent off to be polar bear food. That's totally counter-productive.
There are quite a few who voted for Obama. We need them back. Thirty-one percent of Hispanics voted for Trump. We should be able to get quite a few. Eight percent of blacks voted for Trump. We should be able to get a few percentage points there.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)Along the way I'm not going to avoid pointing out dereliction of civic duty when some fellow Midwesterner brags that they voted for Trump because they didn't know any better.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)have set in with some of the Trump voters who were crossovers.
A lot of them voted for him because they thought he was half Dem economically.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I know people are really upset. I am too. I've seen people on BOTH sides hurt badly by all this. We can't change what already happened but we CAN learn from it, re-calibrate and fix things.
iluvtennis
(20,815 posts)..he likes women, but he doesn't like them in power. I tried to talk to him during election season, but it was like he=itting my head against the wall. To save the family relationship, I refused to talk about politics with him. We could talk about sports, and his job, and family stuff, etc, but to keep the peace, I would shutdown on the politics.
#StillWithHer #SheWon
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)not racist, bigoted or ignored sexual assault. Now I know they either are or are ignorantly oblivious to their surroundings. There is no excuse. People who voted for the Orange Jesus need to take a closer look at themselves. Unless they are so ignorant as to not be introspective. Gullibility, when it comes to politics, can kill people. If they voted for him and still believe they did the right thing.....
OrwellwasRight
(5,210 posts)is not the moral equivalent of being racist. I think there is a lot of confusion on the board between prejudice and racism. All people have prejudice -- most of it subconscious -- people are fooling themselves if they think they do not. But you can learn that you may have such subconscious biases and develop tools to check them in your words and actions. Racism is distinct. It is a clear belief that one race should be in power and use that power. But I digress . . .
Racism is a world view that is chosen -- ignorance and obliviousness can be addressed with education. By writing off everyone with broad based moral judgements made from one particular point of view, we cannot reach any of the oblivious, and we risk turning off a lot of people who simply did not vote with our judgmentalism (judgmentalness? what is the word I am looking for here?). Anyway, you get my drift.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)you have a brain abnormality or you're willfully ignorant.
I tend to think willful ignorance, as in "ignorance is bliss", as opposed to a biological ignorance is the issue. Anyone can be blindsided. But to be willfully "blind sighted" is a choice. To think someone is immune to the elements of politics, or immune to dying in a fire or car crash, is willful.
Politics can kill and is just as dangerous. Just ask the victIms of Hiroshima or the Trail of Tears how potentially dangerous politics is.
In my opinion racism, as something evil, has not been emphasized enough in the general media. I admit to being a bigot. I am bigoted against rascism, sexual assualt and yes even bigotry.
There's a reason ignorance is no excuse in a court of law. Unless you're being prosecuted for murder and are so mentally incapacitated you didn't realize it was wrong.
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 29, 2016, 04:51 PM - Edit history (1)
... showed white Clinton supporters also had racist attitudes. It wasn't as prevalent as among Trump supporters, but the differences weren't as much as I would've expected! I think it was a Reuters poll.
There were other factors too, like level of education. People without college degrees tended to vote for Trump. However, Clinton did well among voters without a high school diploma. I also recall seeing posters here arguing that Ohio had experienced a "brain drain" over the years (with stats of education levels), and that states like Georgia should therefore be a preferable Democratic target now. I didn't agree. My instinct was later confirmed by exit polls that showed white voters in Georgia voted for Trump more than Ohio!
Income was another factor. The higher the income, the more likely they'd vote for Trump. That's true for Republicans in general.
The main difference was between white evangelicals and other whites! Trump won the white evangelical vote by 80% to 16%! If not for them, Clinton would have won the majority of white votes too! Let's not forget the open Supreme Court seat before the election.
White evangelicals have been safely Republican since about 1980. They voted for Jimmy Carter in 1976! Let that sink in!! That was AFTER the civil rights laws of the 60's and Roe v. Wade in 1973! What happened to move them to the Republicans? Jimmy Carter and other Democrats proposed taxes on churches/religious schools in the South if they didn't have enough black integration! Not long thereafter, abortion and other morality issues became a bigger argument against Democrats from evangelical preachers! Republicans also put opposition to abortion in their 1980 platform.
As usual in this country... follow the money! In this example, the tax proposals.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)no biggie for them. Should we call them "racism enablers"? Would that bestill your quivering outrage?
Give me a fucking break. 60 million Americans cited for a pussy grabber BC white supremacy was more important to them than democracy itself.
Afromania
(2,788 posts)Their actions by voting for Trump have put me and MY family in danger. They did it by being gullible, misinformed, uninformed, or just plain ignorant of the situation. I assume you've talked to these people before the election and told these folks what Trump was really about. They took that information in and voted for Trump anyway. I, to protect my life and those of my friends, family and allies, can only take it that they agree with Trump on some level.
You have no right to insist that I, and, people like myself engage with those that have callously, or carelessly, sided with a man that made his agenda as clear as Norway at midnight during the summer. "I have a serious issue with liars and those who will slander and libel people in an attempt to intimidate others or to guilt and shame them" Your statement as applies sounds like you feel your friends and family are "entitled" to their vote. A vote that will allow the other hued peoples, LGBT community, non-Anglo-Christian religions, Union organized, Science oriented, agnostic, and the destitute be burned at the stake of Republican ideals.
I, unlike the Trump administration and the people who have enabled it, will be unable to build an effective registry based on skin color to identify those who wish to impugn on my ability to engage in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. How can I, or anybody else, believe you when they won't speak up and speak out against his bigoted overtones? All I see is you and a few others decrying my, and others anger at his voter block. Perhaps you, and those in your camp, could spend this time convincing these un-biased Trump voters to stand up for those of us you allege they aren't biased against.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I have mentioned before that I have black family members. I have hispanic family members. I have LGBT family members. I have disabled family members. My family just spent the last week doing everything we could to provide the best possible Christmas we could for the young children of an immigrant mother who got stuck out of the country. When they lost their power we were desperately trying to get it back on for them, cooking their meals, doing their laundry.
I didn't even know any of these relatives were going to vote for Trump because, like many here, I made the mistake of viewing things through my own personal perception. But I am a political junkie who follows this stuff year round. We are NOT normal in that regard. Most people only pay attention at the very end of the race. Trump attracted a lot of people to rallies because of the Apprentice. Many of those people don't pay close attention to politics or understand what kind of a danger Trump is. He was famous, politically incorrect, and tapped into their frustration and anger.
If you really want to put a dent in racism and institutional bias that exists in society then throwing around the accusation of calling someone a racist so casually has GOT to stop. When I see or hear racism I call that shit out immediately and have my entire life. I CARE about the issue a great deal. I've seen my own relatives be the target of hate speech. I find racists to be the most disgusting and ugly people on the planet. Guess what...someone here basically called me a racist for "defending Trump voters." Talk about an unfair punch in the gut. I've spent my over 50 years doing ALL I can to fight social injustice yet someone who doesn't even goddamned know me at all can just say something like that so casually about another person they don't know and a whole bunch of other people agree with them. Do you think if that happened enough times to someone who is NOT a racist that they might eventually get jaded and angry? Do you think they might stop caring about the cause?
Tossing around such an ugly accusation so callously is not only hurtful to the many innocent people being slandered but also hurtful to the cause of fighting racism. Every time an innocent person is alienated that is one less person who will fight for your cause.
Afromania
(2,788 posts)but I'm not tossing around the accusation that they are racist. I'm saying that they have voted for somebody that is uniquely unqualified to be President. That he has made his positions quite clear to anybody who cared enough to listen to him. If anything, I'm applying the term willfully ignorant to them. Something you more or less you did by calling them gullible and easily convinced. It didn't take a political junky to hear ANY of the dog whistles of Trump's words or judge ANY of his actions. Like the bringing in a known White Nationalist/Supremacist to run his campaign and then to turn around and give this man a post inside the WH aiding in crafting his policy for the entire nation.
Since you have all of these people of different orientations in your family. Are you saying that none of them gave any voice of dissent about Trump to the other family members? That this guy could be dangerous to their livelihoods? Look, they voted for Trump, fine, but now they need to go about holding his feet to the fire in regards to how he's keeping association with a known racist and how some of their fellow Trump voters are acting like wild dogs. Additionally, as long as they are quiet on the subject than I will deem them complicit in their willful ignorance. Because none, ABSOLUTELY NONE, of what he did or what he said happened in a vacuum.
Squinch
(52,594 posts)This demand that we give a pass to people who have brought certain misery to our lives so that the OP doesn't have to feel uncomfortable about the racists and sexists around her is pissing me off.
ffr
(23,124 posts)Just not enough of us to make a difference I suppose.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)My 80 year old mother r has had to concede that many of her friends are racists/ bigots. It makes her sad (and angry)
Chemisse
(30,997 posts)But at the very best, they are indifferent to the plight of those who are discriminated against. It's really all about them; Trump struck their fancy, for whatever reason, and to hell with all the people who will do worse under his reign.
I am not interested in going after Trump voters to shame them. The damage is done. It only hurts ourselves to nurture hate. What's important now is that they realize what a big mistake it was and don't repeat it in future elections.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)lastone
(588 posts)No one gets a pass on this one, ignorance of a law doesn't get you off so voting in ignorance doesn't get you off the hook. Fuck every last trump supporter.
OnionPatch
(6,212 posts)All the Republicans in my family are racists to a certain extent although they would never, ever admit it. They aren't blatant racists. But I have heard them critique "black culture" in a way that I believe is racist.
I do have a few left-leaning family/friends who didn't vote at all this time because they didn't like Hillary and would never vote for Trump. They are not racists.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Am I sad they are being labelled racists? Not one tiny little bit. 
stopbush
(24,630 posts)and to vigorously and actively oppose Trump and his junta, then sorry, fuck them. They're worse than the bigots who at least can be bothered to have some kind of conviction, however misguided.
"I just don't care enough about my country to be informed" is not an excuse. If that's the case, you're more help if you stay home and don't vote.
Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)ignorance is not an excuse. Any more than "I didn't know it was loaded!" is an excuse after you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger and kill them.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Willie Pep
(841 posts)One friend is a working-class guy and a union member and is mad at the Clintons for NAFTA and said that he would never vote for Hillary because he thought she was untrustworthy on the TPP issue and trade in general.
I have another friend who is a typical business Republican who votes GOP based on economics even though he is fairly liberal on social issues. He was disgusted by Trump's racism and sexism and by his ties to Russia. He was also disturbed by Trump's fascist followers. But he told me that he voted for Trump because of the tax issue. He said he liked Trump's tax cut plans and was worried that Clinton would favor increasing taxes on high-income earners like himself.
I have two cousins who also likely voted for Trump based entirely on his promise to cut taxes. Again, they are affluent business Republican types who aren't racist or sexist but like Republican ideas on economics. I am not sure if they voted for Trump since I have not had a chance to speak with them since the election (they live in another state) but I assume that they probably voted for Trump since they have always been very partisan Republicans.
I suspect that many affluent Republicans held their noses and voted for Trump even though they may have been appalled by some of his statements and his more radical followers. These were the supposedly moderate Republicans who were supposed to flip the election to Clinton. I wish we concentrated more of our ire on these people than on white working-class people. Many Democrats seem to be giving these affluent moderate Republicans a pass compared to the WWC.
Afromania
(2,788 posts)They already have the ire of most people. They choose the dollars over my, our, freedoms and liberties. They monied classes have always been perfectly happy screwing us all over because they have theirs and want to keep it.
yardwork
(64,109 posts)
Exultant Democracy
(6,595 posts)Trump votes have the option of being deeply stupid people who should think about never voting again or they are racists/sexists/bigots. The polling data is clear that most are racists/sexists/bigots but yes some are just too stupid to know better.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Idea how to vote in their own interest ? If we are not nice enough, they will vote against their own interests out of spite. ?
Are the republicans they vote for even nice to them ? Seems they get their votes due to their hatred of others.
These people are different from us. Be nice to them and they call us weak.
Turbineguy
(38,335 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,375 posts)Two ethnic/race-based issues.
People had the choice to show us who they are. My GOP dad voted for Evan McMillin in lieu of Chump. I consider that an indication that he decided to not support a racist. People had choices.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)But, if you are NOT then immigration and terrorism can just as easily be about fear of terror attacks on US soil, which is not entirely unreasonable to be concerned about, and trade/jobs.
If you look at everything from a perspective where you are looking for racism then you will find it, even if it's not actually there.
The point I'm attempting to make with this thread is not that there aren't any racist POS asshats that voted Trump. My point is that it's just NOT OK to go around making assumptions and claims about ALL of his voters because that would NOT be honest or truthful.
Starry Messenger
(32,375 posts)JI7
(90,456 posts)
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)I wouldn't call them bigots, but I would say they are somewhat to very conservative. Their votes were driven by certain hot button issues such as abortion, terrorism, economics and negative perceptions of Hillary.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)With all the name calling that our side does, I don't blame them.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)And I agree, given that the electoral college gives more weight to the votes of racists and idiots, then Democratic politicians probably need to try to get some more racist/idiot votes.
But I'm not a politician, so I'm not going to make excuses for idiots and racists that voted for Trump.
24601
(4,006 posts)disabilities. She has a masters degree. She's a registered Democrat who voted for Clinton in 1992, Gore in 2000, Kerry in 2004 and Obama in 2008 & 2012. She didn't vote in 1996 but would not have voted for Clinton again. Her politics are progressive and she comes from a family in which half were/are artists. She's not a regular church attendee and when she goes, it's to a progressive Episcopal church. Her votes (in Florida) were all about her feelings specifically against Hillary Clinton (as well as against Bill, too) and about voting for her opponent, pretty much no matter who that was going to be, in the primary and general elections.
sakabatou
(42,977 posts)Joe Turner
(930 posts)it makes classifying people so much easier. Agreed on this. And yes I do have family that fall into that category. Totally uncool.
Missn-Hitch
(1,383 posts)
CherokeeDem
(3,718 posts)Someone I love very much voted for Trump. He is not a racist, sexist, or a bigot. He is, in fact, highly intelligent, a principal and superintendent in some of the nation's most concentrated black communities in the north, and students and teachers, male and female of all races continue to tell him the positive impact he made on their lives.
He is a conservative but not a wing-nut, has voted for Democrats, but was disappointed for whatever reason in Obama, primarily the Syria issue and he didn't trust Hillary.
It was a difficult election for us, but we agreed to respect each other's position and deal with what happens. I don't understand why he felt Trump was the best choice, but I will not abide anyone calling him a racist, sexist, or a bigot. He is not.
randr
(12,477 posts)Then they voted for Trump and proved me wrong.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)So, invoting that way they proved their racism and you want to protect them from the consequences of their votes. Their consequenceis condemnation. You seem much more worried about the feelings of white trump voters than about the lives of those of us who are suffering racial attacks from said voters.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Every American is going to bear the bad consequences of their bad mistake. Some will have it worse than others. But if we condemn all of those who voted for Trump this time around, how are we going to attract them in 2018 and 2020? What kind of campaign slogan is "We hate you racist pigs, but if you want to redeem yourselves, vote for us?"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Afromania
(2,788 posts)"You voted us down the river, now help get everybody out of the water before we all down." I mean if they can hold their nose and vote their interests for a "bad guy" (tired of typing out all of his faults). Then they can just as easily hold their nose for the person that won't sell them down the river. I mean, cmon, they had no problem with him implying that my people are all poor, stupid and living in hell or that the Mexicans are thieves and rapists...... Well, except for Salma Hayek because she's eminently smexy(no pun intended).
BainsBane
(54,728 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 30, 2016, 03:59 AM - Edit history (1)
The only consequence we can affect is social condemnation.
Bravenak is not among those who covets Republucan voters. If Democrats paid a fraction of the attention to disenfranchisement of voters of color than they do to worring about the feelings of Republicans, we could actually win an election without normalizing white male supremacy.
That of course depends on people actually valuing racial and gender equality, though some seem to prefer a Democratic electorate that more closely resembles the GOP.
JI7
(90,456 posts)People saying they are bigots also.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)because THEY'RE not racist.
I don't give a damn if they personally think people like me are genetically inferior to them. They lined up with people who do and helped them put a racist into the White House. They each had one vote, just like David Duke and just like I did. But instead of standing with millions of people like me who begged them not to vote for Trump because he is dangerous to us, they ignored us and made a conscious decision to use their votes to bolster David Duke's vote, thereby guaranteeing that a racist would become president.
I don't know if they did it because they're racist or just stupid. And I don't care. But I do know that they were shown ample proof that Donald Trump is a racist who would do great harm to me and people like me and they didn't care.
When the votes were counted, no one could tell which Trump votes were cast by racists and which votes were cast by ignorant, racist-tolerant people and it doesn't matter - they all were counted equally and led to a result they should be ashamed of.
I am NOT going to give them the benefit of the doubt, no matter how hard you try to whitewash their complicity in this national horror. We begged them to give US the benefit of the doubt and they turned their backs on us. There are worse things than being thought to be a racist - and we're about to endure it, thanks in part to them.
I had a long-winded response to this thread, and then I saw this. COMPLETELY on point and beautifully written.
Exactly what I was thinking.
The Polack MSgt
(13,422 posts)Supporting Racism is Racist.
I don't care about their reasons, i watch their actons
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)...that someone must not be a bigot if they aren't wearing a white robe and pointy hat. People who deny the reality of white privilege are racists. One need not be a member of the KKK or a neo-nazi to qualify as a bigot.
And virtually everyone who voted for Trump has to be well aware of Trump's overt racism and misogyny. Unless they live in a cave, in which case I'd be surprised if they voted at all.
samir.g
(836 posts)They put a nazi into power.
Rural_Progressive
(1,107 posts)I have one very dear friend who truly did not believe that trump had a snowball's chance of winning. He hates the Clintons with an absolute passion. He's a very honorable man and when Bill did his "I did not have sex with that woman", well that was all he wrote. If Clinton had accepted responsibility, apologized for his behavior, acknowledged it was not appropriate behavior for someone in the office, blah, blah, blah blah (you have no idea how many times I have heard this story) all would have been fine.
He believes that the Clintons are creatures of technicalities, in other words that skate just as close to the border of illegality as they can without doing something they can be charged with, in other words people with no honor. In my friend's defense he is one of the most honest men I have ever known. He's an excellent mechanic and will never be well-to-do because he insists on doing the job right even if he has to put in more hours than he feels he can charge you. Distances are great and the roads not so good in my part of rural America. We all are dependent on our vehicles to exist, county is larger than the state of CT with under 50,000 people. In other words it's a long drive to get anywhere and mass transit really isn't an option. He does more pro bono work than anyone I know keeping people on pensions, social security, etc. with cars and trucks working so they can get around.
I talked to him the day after the election and he was, and still is, devastated by the results. Granted WA was never in play and went solidly for Clinton but for him, the idea of someone like trump being president goes against everything he believes.
He's paying penance, donating to and getting involved in "Our Revolution". He's my friend and I'm proud of how he's handling his mistake. Probably not too many cases like his but he's a good guy and he voted for trump.
mvd
(65,437 posts)My parents and the aunts and uncles I am close to are Democrats. So the Trump supporters I hardly ever talk to. One Trump supporter in the family may be racist, but overall they are ignorant. A couple have religious fundamentalism that influences them. I think the general premise of your thread is right. But Trump has definiteiy emboldened racists, has seen in some of the incidents around the country lately. So racism and its connection to Trump can't be ignored either.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)liberalmuse
(18,876 posts)Everyone I know who voted for Trump is pretty much a racist or are very uninformed. That's just been my experience. As a matter of fact, I've never met a Republican who isn't a racist. If you interact with them for a couple hours, hell, less than that, they will say something outright racist.
A friend of mine (for the last few years) voted for Trump and I found out a couple days ago she is outright racist. I'd thought I'd met one person who didn't fit the Christian/Republican/racist stereotype. I don't want to interact with her again, to be honest. Racism and people who vote for Trump disgust me.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(26,678 posts)OR they are too fucking ignorant to find out essential facts about the candidates and so are by default, racists/sexists/bigots.
I don't want to hear stories about your kindly aunt who would give the shirt off her back and who volunteers in the local animal shelter but who somehow managed to vote for Trump. I don't care that she's 85 years old and doesn't watch much TV, because if she really doesn't, I sincerely hope she reads books and listens to NPR and the BBC and other sources of genuine news. If she doesn't, then she's simply closing herself off from being informed about the world.
I'm a bit younger than 85 myself, by some 17 years, and I don't watch TV, but I do read, and I do listen to NPR and the BBC and Amy Goodman, and I'm not bamboozled by slick con men, which is exactly what Trump is. And if your 85 year old kindly aunt suddenly loses her Social Security or her Medicare, she will have no reason to complain, because it is incumbent upon her to know what the hell she's voting for.
That applies to every single person, regardless of age, gender, social station, or whatever, who voted for Trump. They voted for him and they need to live with the consequences of that vote. Unfortunately, so do all of us who didn't vote for him.
True_Blue
(3,063 posts)But what if instead of Trump, we have a black candidate that ran on a not-so-subtle black nationalism platform, but made the same promises like building a wall and bringing back manufacturing & coal mining jobs? Do you think the disaffected white workers in the rust belt would show up en mass to vote for him since he promised to bring back manufacturing & coal mining jobs?
Afromania
(2,788 posts)not on their life, we had people jumping ship when Obama didn't make miracles happen 2 months from the inauguration. DU in particular was rife with people complaining about his "hope and change" sloganeering. I imagine those are the same voters who turned to Trump this time.
Even if we get those types to cast votes for a Dem again. You run the risk of them immediately flaking out. Democrats don't get the benefit of the doubt from these types of voters. If they did, more Democrats would rise to power in these areas.
BainsBane
(54,728 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 30, 2016, 03:11 AM - Edit history (1)
Who campaigned on racism and was endorsed by the KKK, and who is also a repeat sexual predator. What is "in their hearts" doesn't concern me. They choose to validate white supremacy and sexual assault. They decided that they wanted their children to look up to someone who won based on hatred for everyone but white men, who bragged about grabbing women by the pussy, and who is accused by some 15 women of sexual assault. What is in their hearts doesn't matter; what they did to this country does, and that is absolutely unforgivable.
When Trump is creating his Muslim registry and following through on his stated plans for internment camps, tell me how the "hearts of your loved ones" are relevant to those targeted? All that matters is that they sanctioned his plans with their votes. It is their votes that gave Trump's racism power over the country.
To be clear, I have even greater contempt for the shit stains who refused to vote for Clinton because she wasn't "progressive" enough and thereby stood with the Klan and Trump's racism and sexual predation. I have zero doubt that they did so out of hatred for the poor, people of color and women who refused to submit to their rule. As far as I'm concerned, there is zero space between them and the White Supremacists whose goals for the General Election they shared.
I'm sorry you feel your loved ones have been maligned. I hope at some point you find the courage to stop enabling them. Perhaps if you had as much concern for their reputations prior to the election, you could have informed them about the consequences of their votes? That you didn't do so is not the responsibility of anyone here. You certainly aren't going to succeed in convincing those of us who value equality that it is okay to vote for white male supremacy. Sadly, there are Democrats who want to see the party whiter and more male, and as a result are far more concerned with placating white Trump voters than stopping the disenfranchisement of voters of color.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
MarvinGardens
(781 posts)My parents, who are white, were totally accepting of my black girlfriend in 2006. We were married in 2009 and have 2 children. They have always been totally loving and accepting of their racially mixed family. They were generally Republican but my Mom voted for Obama in 08. My father has been saying for years that we need to bring back manufacturing and adjust our trade policies accordingly. When Trump came along, he was their guy because no other R favored those trade policies. When I expressed concerns about the racism, they dismissed it as "liberal media" hype and exaggeration. They became like religious zealots, because here was finally the trade protectionist they had been waiting for. They refused to see his flaws. They also believed some of the terrible fabrications about Hillary.
I think they made a terrible mistake in voting for Trump. They relied on bad information. They looked the other way when they should have seen the evil. They were apologists for a man who was racist. But that is not the same as being racist.
I will repeat what I said on another thread, and others have said more eloquently. If our attitude is that Trump voters committed an act of irredeemable evil and they can all fuck off, then we will never be able to move forward as a single united nation. We can recognize that Trump voters made a terrible error in judgement, but some and hopefully many are redeemable.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)It's not my job to make them feel better. And our party should not devote its limited resources and time to chasing around after these people and shape-shifting to appeal to them. We need to stay true to our values and do more outreach to our own base and not be intimidated by accusations that we're "playing identity politics."
If we focus on our values and our base, people like your parents may see the light and come to us - just like they went to Donald Trump without being catered to when they thought HE would satisfy their best interests. Trump did not reach out or change his ways or message to attract people like your parents, but they jumped over to him anyway because, for some reason, they liked what he was saying and doing. We shouldn't change into a lite version of him to get their attention - and if that's the only way to attract them, they need to stay over there with him. But if they figure out that our way is better for them and they're willing to be a part of our movement on our terms (i.e. big tent, fighting for the least of us, etc.), I'd gladly welcome them back. But I'll be damned if I'll go chasing around after them or will tolerate my party morphing into Republican-lite in order to convince them to come back home.
MarvinGardens
(781 posts)Raine
(30,600 posts)
Eugene
(62,630 posts)A policeman relative of mine is not a racist but
but his views about gun rights are informed
by the Free Republic.
...and we are African American.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Unfortunately, people like your relative joined up with racists to hand our country over to a bigot, so it doesn't really matter which category he falls into - the result is the same.
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)If we can't treat voters who knew nothing about Trump other than that he grabs women by their genitals and nothing about Hillary other than the steady stream of lies spread by the MSM with the able assistance of Putin like they are no different than the racist clowns who we now know make up the entirety of the Republican party, how can we ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of the national campaign's energy went to the one argument we had the biggest problem making with a straight face (i.e., that, in a nation where sexual discrimination, if not predation, is commonplace among many of Trump's predecessors, his sexual predation is disqualifying)?
If we can't say that it was voters' fault for "not going to Hillary's website because all of the (genuinely great) things she stood for were right there" how can we ignore that they were just footnotes during her speeches?
We might actually have to take some responsibility and it sure as heck wasn't our fault.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)Loric Vilesilencer
(49 posts)are REPUBLICANS. And not just any Republicans...the most hard core of Republicans, since the few Republicans with even a shred of decency left repudiated Trump.
These people didn't just vote for Trump out of nowhere, and certainly not after voting Democratic their whole lives up until now. They've been supporting the party of racism, sexism and homophobic bigotry, the party of hate and intolerance, for years, if not decades. Sorry if you hate the fact that you don't know these people as well as you thought you did, or if you don't know how to cope with what you've found out about them, but tough. They are what they are, and their support for bigotry makes them bigoted. They don't deserved to be coddled or made nice with.
You're either on the side of bigotry, or you're not. Choose.
avebury
(11,073 posts)Even if they are not personally racists/sexists/bigots, as far as I am concerned, if they voted for Trump they condone that behavior.
You would have to be deaf, dumb or blind to not realize what Trump and his minions are all about. MSM media (including NBC, ABC and CBS) flooded the airwaves with vidoes frtum Trumps rallies and his tweets. There are voters who, for whatever reason. let their blind hatred of Hillary Clinton totally overide their common sense.
I refuse to give a pass to anyone who voted for Trump, family or not.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)A few I would say are racist or bigots. A few are likely sexist (but most aren't - too many women voted against HRC).
Many seem to discount a lot of the worst about Trump, while believing a lot of the BS about HRC.
Most seem to have had a tough choice, and ended up voting for their own personal self-interest - pro-life, pro-gun, anti-Hillary, something different, security, religion, etc.
Ignorance? a bunch - but selfish is likely most common denominator.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's been shown in study after study, yes indeed.
Also, the vast majority would deny they are sexist, same as racists do.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Had and how "they couldn't listen to her" while knowing nothing about her long career. That is sexist, they jut don't realize it is.
DaleFromWPB
(76 posts)It's sad that others here think that calling voters everything from traitors to stupid will do anything make them receptive to our message.
Kind of depressing actually
TrekLuver
(2,573 posts)years of Hillary bashing.
DemocratSinceBirth
(100,188 posts)
pansypoo53219
(21,704 posts)he mate is a NRA guy.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Bull. Shit. They are what they are. There is NO EXCUSE for voting for that fascist monster. If you have family and friends who voted for him, you have a decision to make. Either make excuses for them and thereby condone their racism OR be an adult and call them out on their racism and stupidity.