Poll: Bernie vs. Hillary on Social Justice

[MannyGoldstein]

Regarding their actual track records, when it comes to championing social justice...

Please rec this thread if you'd like to see lots of votes.

105 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Hillary has a much stronger record
	2 (2%)
	Hillary has a somewhat stronger record
	0 (0%)
	About the same
	4 (4%)
	Bernie has a somewhat stronger record
	0 (0%)
	Bernie has a much stronger record
	99 (94%)
	Other (please state below)
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[99Forever]

1. Not even close.

[JaneyVee]

5. Dedicating her life to fighting AIDS in Africa.

Pushing policy on global human rights. Helping to uplift oppressed and poverty stricken women and children around the globe. Etc etc. etc.

[beam me up scottie]

6. DOMA

[JaneyVee]

7. What year was that?

[beam me up scottie]

8. Oh, my bad. I thought you were talking about her entire life.

She was fiercely opposed to same sex marriage just a few short years ago.

While she marched in pride parades.

[JaneyVee]

10. You're the one who brought it up. I was just....

Listing off some of her accomplishments in global social justice. I didn't realize you were just here to air grievances. Yes, it appears she's evolved on this issue. Good for her.

[beam me up scottie]

11. You brought up her life's accomplishments, I was just helping you out.

HC supporters love to forget all about how she fought so hard to keep one minority group from having equal rights.

[JaneyVee]

13. I wouldn't consider that an "accomplishment"...

Which is why it wasn't listed.

[beam me up scottie]

14. Bingo.

[JaneyVee]

16. Weird that you thought it was though.

[beam me up scottie]

18. It was quite an accomplishment for someone opposed to same sex marriage.

Weird that you "forgot" about that chapter in her life.

[JaneyVee]

21. It was in the etc's.

This is boring.

[beam me up scottie]

22. But you just said it wasn't listed.

JaneyVee (12,022 posts)

13. I wouldn't consider that an "accomplishment"...

Which is why it wasn't listed."

Which is it?

[JaneyVee]

27. Yeah because something she never even cast a vote for...

Somehow negates a life of global humanitarianism.

[beam me up scottie]

30. She ran for president while opposing equal rights for lgbt people.

Just because you would rather forget that period in her life doesn't mean everyone else forgot about it.

And a few speeches don't equal "a life of global humanitarianism".

[JaneyVee]

32. Just make sure you vote for the 2016 Dem nominee.

[beam me up scottie]

37. She said as she took her ball and went home...

Every time you're presented with an uncomfortable truth you post that insipid statement.

It's like your own personal white flag.

[JaneyVee]

42. Here the thing:

I don't have to defend her every decision. I know that must be an uncomfortable truth for you.

[beam me up scottie]

45. Damn good thing too, because you're failing miserably.

[JaneyVee]

48. Stay positive.

[beam me up scottie]

50. If you're not pissed off you're not paying attention.

[Fuddnik]

54. Leave Hillary alone!

[beam me up scottie]

56. LOL!

[mr blur]

68. ^^Thread winner!^^

[Curmudgeoness]

72. Yes, you make sure to vote for the 2016 Dem nominee too.

And don't try to make it too difficult on those who are not in the Hillary camp right now.

[MannyGoldstein]

9. 2008, perhaps later

Why do you ask?

[Admiral Loinpresser]

60. White strategy in 2008,

three strikes, ending welfare and escalation of war on drugs in '90s. Bernie opposed all that.

[beam me up scottie]

62. And then there's that.

Bernie's record is stellar, no doubt about it. And HC has a lot of explaining to do.

[artislife]

84. But they are hard working white people......nt

[brooklynite]

77. Was Hillary Clinton President when DOMA was passed?

[beam me up scottie]

78. She opposed same sex marriage throughout her career including when she ran

for the Democratic nomination in 2008. Had she been elected she would have been a president who opposed equal rights for lgbt people.

1996: “My preference is that we do all we can to strengthen traditional marriages, and that the people engaged in parenting children be committed to one another and to the child. We also have to be realistic and know there are others who can do a good job, as well, of raising children,” Mrs. Clinton told The San Francisco Examiner.

2000: “Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman,” Mrs. Clinton said while running for the Senate in New York.

2003: “Well, marriage means something different. You know, marriage has a meaning that I think should be kept as it historically has been, but I see no reason whatsoever why people in committed relationships can’t have many of the same rights and the same respect for their unions that they are seeking, and I would like to see that be more accepted than it is,” Mrs. Clinton speaking to WNYC on the difference between gay marriage and civil unions.

2003: “I am, you know, for many reasons. I think that the vast majority of Americans find that to be something they can’t agree with. But I think most Americans are fair. And if they believe that people in committed relationships want to share their lives and, not only that, have the same rights that I do in my marriage, to decide who I want to inherit my property or visit me in a hospital, I think that most Americans would think that that’s fair and that should be done,” Mrs. Clinton, in an interview with CBS, on whether she still opposed same-sex marriage.

2006: “My position is consistent. I support states making the decision. I think that Chuck Schumer would say the same thing. And if anyone ever tried to use our words in any way, we’ll review that. Because I think that it should be in the political process and people make a decision and if our governor and our Legislature support marriage in New York, I’m not going to be against that,” Mrs. Clinton telling Gay City News that she would not block legislation supporting gay marriage in New York.

2007: “I am very much in favor of civil unions with full equality of benefits,” Mrs. Clinton told Ellen DeGeneres, explaining that she still believed the decision should be left to states.

She finally came around in 2013.

2013: “L.G.B.T. Americans are our colleagues, our teachers, our soldiers, our friends, our loved ones, and they are full and equal citizens and deserve the rights of citizenship. That includes marriage,” Mrs. Clinton said in a video released by Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights advocacy group.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/04/16/hillary-clintons-changing-views-on-gay-marriage/

[Scootaloo]

12. I don't think you're using the phrase "dedicating her life to..." properly there

[JaneyVee]

15. Don't her speeches benefit Clinton Global Initiative?

Which have teams around the globe.

[Scootaloo]

23. Usually when someone says a person has dedicated their life" to something...

it's a singular, driving focal point in that person's life. Jane Goodall devoted her life to understanding great apes. Stephen Hawking has devoted his life to exploring and understanding physics. Adam Sandler has devoted his life to being a gigantic fucking asshole.

Clinton has certainly pitched in to the AIDS effort in Africa and I won't knock that. But to say say she's "dedicated her life" to it is more than a little hyperbolic. I mean she's not exactly out in the field doing this, and it's not the keystone of her life..

[bvf]

29. OT

"Adam Sandler has devoted his life to being a gigantic fucking asshole."



/OT

[Phlem]

58. OMG. Really?

Have you researched how non profit agencies work? Hint: people get payed, sometimes very well.

I'm not going to walk you through it. I'm sure as smart as you are that, very little can contribute to the over all campaign once everyone gets paid.

please don't play dumb.

[99Forever]

17. This isn't a cafeteria.

You don't get to pick and choose what counts and what doesn't.

Take a gander at the poll results. Seeing a trend yet?

Bwahahahahahahahaha.

[JaneyVee]

19. If its on the internet it must be true.

Have you seen the actual poll results, you know, the ones done by professional pollsters?

[bvf]

51. What "actual poll results" are you referring to?

Since you refer to them as "the actual poll results," you must have an actual poll in mind directed specifically to the social justice question.

Link? Or did you just make that up?

[Ed Suspicious]

57. It's on the internet. It must not be true.

[George II]

25. On a bernie board, sure.

[Bubzer]

52. "On a bernie board" ...? I think you missed the forum tag

DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion: Primaries (Forum)

[London Lover Man]

20. Done in one: Welfare reform.

She supported that, starting with her husband's 1994 legislation.

[JaneyVee]

35. She did not cast any vote for it.

And its pretty funny how you guys think politicians casting a few insignificant votes in office is somehow even in the same league as someone who has worked on global humanitarianism and social justice. Please, get a grip.

[MannyGoldstein]

41. She heartily endorsed it

On many occasions.

[JaneyVee]

43. And the NRA heartily endorsed Bernie.

[beam me up scottie]

46. By giving him an F rating.

Are you new at this?

[LondonReign2]

74. Oh goodness

You'll need to try a bit harder

[DisgustipatedinCA]

59. She's dedicated her life to fighting AIDS?

I'm sure she's done good work there, but no, a person who was First Lady, the Senator, the Secretary of State--that person must dedicate their lives to those positions.

[eridani]

67. I'm sure the women of Iraq and Libya appreciate that work n/t

[JaneyVee]

2. Disclaimer: This is an internet poll.

[bvf]

3. Yes, everybody knows that.

It says so right up there.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Are you certain? Where am I? Who took my scotch?

[Bubzer]

53. All polls have disclaimers.

They are almost all non-scientific... or omit certain groups... or only count people that meet specific criteria... etc.
I think if they were scientific, they'd be less likely to make sales.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. translation: your horse is running last. By 140 lengths.

[Deny and Shred]

4. If I may paraphrase Jester Messiah :

"One Finger ... Courageously Moistened ... Held Aloft ... Ascertaining the Winds ... "

We expect a comment soon, once the focus group results come in.

Haven't you heard? We must discount the last 50 years of track record and focus only on what's happened in the last six months. The support of various hashtags hangs in the balance.

[George II]

26. 50 years, with a huge 20+ year gap in the middle, thank you.

[Deny and Shred]

36. You're welcome.

A modern politician having taken a 50-year unpopular-yet-principled stand is probably unique. Ignore that. Focus on that 20+ year gap though - there couldn't possibly be gaps in the records of other candidates.

If only he'd been a Goldwater girl, or not known which way to go on LGBT rights a mere few years ago. If only the same focus-grouped precision of today could have been applied when establishing principles held (or changed) for the previously-mentioned 50 years ...

Taking the opponent's strength (50 yr track record) and portraying it as a weakness - where have I heard that strategy before?

[kenn3d]

73. Another Black Blogger's perspective...

Excerpted from another Black blogger's piece entitled:
BERNIE SANDERS FOR PRESIDENT



A good read with more interesting perspectives in the comments
http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/bernie-sanders-president-19734

[Deny and Shred]

81. Thank you for the link

Your ability to sense aligning perspectives is quite keen.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

63. What twenty plus years? Specifically? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

69. This is HUGH! There is a 20 year gap!

[1StrongBlackMan]

24. I'd say they're about the same ...

focusing on different areas and during different periods and through different methods.

[MannyGoldstein]

31. Perhaps you can help to enlighten the 100 or so voters

as to your arguments here? They seem to see things differently than you do.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

61. +1 n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Well, I don't see the world through the lense of Bernie ...

the likely fact is, with history and a respect for the past serving as a guide, neither Bernie or HRC or O'Malley will do much of anything for Black people (except for, maybe, as an resultant of some other policy, e.g., universal day-care will benefit all working class folks including Black folks, as opposed to targeted grants to finance Black-owned businesses or an increase in federal "set-asides"/sub-contracting requirements for Black businesses). All I hope for, in this and every election of my life, is that the eventual president will not work against Black folks' interest.

Now ... Both (all three) candidates have, largely, cast "the right" votes on civil rights/social justice legislation ... that's the easy part; though, I doubt any of the candidates will "waste" the political capital to do anything bold with respect to social justice.

[delrem]

82. Did you notice that the Supreme Court Marriage Equality Decision

was written by Anthony Kennedy, who was appointed by Ronald Reagan?

That surprised me.
Given who appointed the man Supreme Court Justice, his ruling on Citizens United v. FEC was more his style. I reconcile the opposites by judging that Anthony Kennedy "evolved" on the marriage equality issue, because he "evolved" in his understanding of sexual identity, by which I mean that he gained greater depth of understanding of what sexual identity *is*, then applied that greater understanding to the laws that he was ruling on. Whatever else I might think about the man Anthony Kennedy, I applaud that kind of evolution in thought and signals a global change in way of thinking of and perceiving other people, and I don't think it ever should be disparaged. Because it's real.

Anyhoo... my point is that Kennedy's "evolution" was slow, very slow, and it was accomplished by an unity of purpose or solidarity of purpose among a whole range of people with diverse political views -- it wasn't achieved by everyone pissing all over everyone else in a purity contest (or primary contest), it was achieved by changing the majority view of the US citizenry, by taking control of the language of debate.

Good wishes.

[JI7]

39. yup

one is doing a better job of reaching out to others though which has been the point you and others have made. but people want to turn it into something else.

[Hydra]

28. Nice Poll Manny

Glad to see the smoke and mirrors aren't working here.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Odd, it's almost as if most of one side is boycotting the poll.

I can't imagine why they would do that. Very strange and all that.

Props to those that showed up though, at least you'll say what you think.

[Hydra]

38. Ya, missing some names here

Not sure why they wouldn't be proud to say what they are saying elsewhere- maybe they are too in awe of Third Way Manny

[DanTex]

40. Well that settles it. Bernie is the new president of DU.

[TM99]

44. Finally.

We thought you would never come to this conclusion.

[JI7]

47. as kucinich sets to end his

[Buzz cook]

49. You do know that internet polls are useless don't you?

Why not link to their respective voting records?
Like this.
https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/55463/hillary-clinton#.Va8cqGMXLc8

http://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders#.Va8dvWMXLc8

Or this.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/hillary_clinton/300022

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357

Ya see it's easy to do.

[PatrickforO]

55. While I believe it IS true Bernie has the best record hands down, we must remember

that reportedly 85% of the people on DU are pro-Bernie.

That said, think how encouraging it will be for us when outside polls begin to reflect this support.

[BlueMTexpat]

64. While it is true that Bernie has a much longer

record in the US Congress if one combines both his House and Senate years, his votes and Hillary's votes on social justice issues are generally closer than not.

If individuals are truly interested in exploring those issues and getting information instead of piling on Clinton supporters as I noticed has happened here, please see the post upthread that lists their actual voting records. Please also check out this site: http://www.ontheissues.org/Issues.htm

Hillary actually showed great consciousness of social justice issues dating from her commencement speech at Wellesley College in 1969. Yes, 1969! http://www.sojust.net/speeches/hillaryclinton_commencement.html

Some excerpts:

...
We are, all of us, exploring a world that none of us even understands and attempting to create within that uncertainty. But there are some things we feel, feelings that our prevailing, acquisitive, and competitive corporate life, including tragically the universities, is not the way of life for us. We're searching for more immediate, ecstatic and penetrating mode of living. And so our questions, our questions about our institutions, about our colleges, about our churches, about our government continue.
...
Every protest, every dissent, whether it's an individual academic paper, Founder's parking lot demonstration, is unabashedly an attempt to forge an identity in this particular age. That attempt at forging for many of us over the past four years has meant coming to terms with our humanness. Within the context of a society that we perceive -- now we can talk about reality, and I would like to talk about reality sometime, authentic reality, inauthentic reality, and what we have to accept of what we see -- but our perception of it is that it hovers often between the possibility of disaster and the potentiality for imaginatively responding to men's needs. There's a very strange conservative strain that goes through a lot of New Left, collegiate protests that I find very intriguing because it harkens back to a lot of the old virtues, to the fulfillment of original ideas. And it's also a very unique American experience. It's such a great adventure. If the experiment in human living doesn't work in this country, in this age, it's not going to work anywhere.

But we also know that to be educated, the goal of it must be human liberation. A liberation enabling each of us to fulfill our capacity so as to be free to create within and around ourselves. To be educated to freedom must be evidenced in action, and here again is where we ask ourselves, as we have asked our parents and our teachers, questions about integrity, trust, and respect. Those three words mean different things to all of us.
...
There's that mutuality of respect between people where you don't see people as percentage points. Where you don't manipulate people. Where you're not interested in social engineering for people. The struggle for an integrated life existing in an atmosphere of communal trust and respect is one with desperately important political and social consequences. And the word "consequences" of course catapults us into the future. One of the most tragic things that happened yesterday, a beautiful day, was that I was talking to woman who said that she wouldn't want to be me for anything in the world. She wouldn't want to live today and look ahead to what it is she sees because she's afraid. Fear is always with us but we just don't have time for it. Not now.
...

She concludes with a wonderful poem by Nancy Schneibner:

My entrance into the world of so-called "social problems"
Must be with quiet laughter, or not at all.
The hollow men of anger and bitterness
The bountiful ladies of righteous degradation
All must be left to a bygone age.
And the purpose of history is to provide a receptacle
For all those myths and oddments
Which oddly we have acquired
And from which we would become unburdened
To create a newer world
To transform the future into the present.
We have no need of false revolutions
In a world where categories tend to tyrannize our minds
And hang our wills up on narrow pegs.
It is well at every given moment to seek the limits in our lives.
And once those limits are understood
To understand that limitations no longer exist.
Earth could be fair. And you and I must be free
Not to save the world in a glorious crusade
Not to kill ourselves with a nameless gnawing pain
But to practice with all the skill of our being
The art of making possible.

Whatever she has been and done since - even with occasional wobbles - have brought her back full circle to this. I firmly believe this and am proud to support her candidacy.

May the best man (or woman) win the nomination!

[Onlooker]

75. Hillary has certainly accomplished more

Hillary has done far more for women's rights than Bernie has done for anyone's rights. Don't get me wrong -- Bernie's views are great and love what he is doing, but the fact is that Hillary is an inspiration to women around the world and has been active in a global context for a very long time. Let's not support Bernie by making Hillary look bad; even Bernie understands that.

[WillyT]

76. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[sabrina 1]

79. Is that even a question once you check out their records, and after seeing how

desperately they are trying to PREVENT people from doing so?

Lol, Bernie wins hands down when we stick to the issues.

[Zorra]

80. ^

[Cheese Sandwich]

83. I voted for Bernie because track record