Occupy Underground
Related: About this forumEyewitness account from an SF Occupier to last nights vandalism (and he's not happy).
http://scottrossi.tumblr.com/post/22184158717/notes-from-an-occupation-17-dolores-park-ruckus...
Isnt it funny too, that for the last 6 months of sustained protests, we couldnt fart sideways without riot police raising their truncheons against us anywhere in the Bay Area, yet these cops werent around tonight when the convergence in Dolores Park turned into a march. the 2 squad cars and van that were following us did so at a snails pace while the boojie restaurants on 18th street got vandalized. Some more police units on Valencia just let the protest pass, despite its obviously destructive intent, and the cops were driving past laughing as their cars were pelted with paint. The laughter is really what betrays something seriously wrong about tonights march. For six months, were beaten, harassed and arrested at the slightest provocation, park and public lodging rules enforced to the very last dotted i and crossed t, but tonight, they let a pack of vandals run riot down Valencia street.
...
Weve spent months radicalizing and empowering the Mission, working with and learning from groups who have already been here for decades, trying to use our momentum, enthusiasm and appeal to energize moribound organizations and skittish and apathetic people. Weve been encouraging people to feel empowered to organize themselves, to get unions for day laborers, to march for and bring attention to our terrible immigration practices, hell the list goes on and on. Its just convenient that these so called protesters acted in such a way to undermine and burn all those bridges weve been so carefully building. The destruction was too calculated and precise in its seeming randomness to be Black Bloc or even those fucking suburban scumbags who get an anarchist patch at Hot Topic and think that gives them license to come to Oakland or SF and burn shit down.
Like I said, I dont know who did this, but I am 1000000% certain they were not OccupySF and they were not OccupyOakland. I know the action was marketed as an action against gentrification, but too many regular people suffered tonight. Too many car tires are slashed. An old, brown minivan on the corner of Valencia and Duboce has all the windows busted out and the tires are flat. How is the owner supposed to drive that to work? The point is, the Mission, my neighborhood, a working class neighborhood, albeit one infested with yuppies and hipsters, got fucked up tonight. All that work weve been doing is now jeopardized. All the interest in what we were doing that brought people in the Mission to ask OccupySF to help them organize is jeopardized. Im sure the woman wondering how shes getting to work in the morning because her car is jacked up now finds her job and way of life jeopardized.
ck4829
(35,907 posts)I want to say there's nothing unusual about this, but it doesn't smell right.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)they have been using this device for at least a century to control protest and undermine any attempt for justice and change.
Send in the agent provocateurs to cause trouble...and the cops are deep into it....it is all about control and they know how to do it....and no one in the media dare call them on it...because they are controlled too.
K&R
saras
(6,670 posts)But no one thought to stop them, or call them on it? If a bunch of people show up at your informal football game and say "fuck football, let's go tip some cars over,", do you all just go follow them? Do you let them talk your friends into it?
They were almost certainly agents, and needed to be stopped immediately. Whose job is it, and what tools are legitimate?
edit: looking back, I don't intend this to be personal. Obviously someone there as a medic is doing more than their fair share already. But there were a hell of a lot of OTHER people there. What was their reaction to the "leaders"?
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)and metal rods. Live streamers were also threatened. Peaceful non-violent protesters will not arm themselves to battle agent provacatuers.
The police though, were well armed and did little to nothing.
AnneD
(15,774 posts)like 3 day old fish.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)so we can identify these people...
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)StarsInHerHair
(2,125 posts)move away & put distance between them & your group
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)the rest went elsewhere.
Roland99
(53,345 posts)jack-booted thugs
Javaman
(63,101 posts)greytdemocrat
(3,300 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Looks like provocateurs, acts like provocateurs, all the way down to the way the uniformed cops were behaving around them.
Possibly cops, or maybe those scumfuck Pinkertons the banksters have been hiring lately.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Isn't there a puppy you can kick?
Javaman
(63,101 posts)bless your heart.
20score
(4,769 posts)Of course it will take a lot courage. Whistle blowers doing the right thing are more mistreated than they have been in decades.
tblue37
(66,035 posts)We have social media now, so the media savvy young folks in OWS chapters everywhere should be screaming this info from the metaphorical rooftops, so that no one can go anywhere without hearing about it.
Put it on your Facebook pages. Twitter it. Post fliers about it. Write LTTEs. Blog it, and send the info to all the ploitical blogs you know--as well as to all the blogs or message boards you frequent that deal with other subbjects but that might be willing to ehar such news from regular posters.
Tell everyone you know in every way you know. Then, the next time somethinglike this happens, sspread the word some more.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Four Barrel Coffee ? @fourbarrel
#OWS #OSF Occupiers: you are at risk of being guilty by association. Even though they are the ones that co-opted and are joyriding the cause
fourbarrel #OWS #OSF Occupiers: we fully realize that "splinter factions" don't fully represent you and what you're fighting for.
annabanana
(52,791 posts)Generic Other
(29,000 posts)Does make you wonder where, who, how this secret group organizes for events. Funny none of the Occupy people or GA's ever hear about violent plans ahead of time. I know if such plans were outlined at my town's GA's, there would be a lot of disagreement.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Then you can show that the GA is not party to the violence -- which sounds planned.
joshcryer
(62,491 posts)I have seen comments from some Mission people who felt business owners should shoot the protesters.
I smell divide and conquer here.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)joshcryer
(62,491 posts)I could be duped.
But SFGate never was one for civilized commentary...
What's important is that it's being used to divide and conquer.
"I don't know any of those guys."
No fucking shit, they're anonymous.
Anonymous brings out the worst in people.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Thanks for providing this. I think anyone who reads it will understand what is being done there.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)There is a lot of video online of globalization protests from toronto, pittsburgh,miami. There are always agents/plants that start violence either to make the movement look bad or to give an excuse to crack down. I don't know the answer but to be successful the movement needs some strategy that will work despite these hardball kinds of tactics by the other side.
I wonder if some of them could be private security hired by the banks? Hopefully there is a ton of video. And some of these people are going to be identified as plants.
But will it even matter if the average American watching on TV just sees the orgiginal headline story of the buring cars or whatever, but they never hear that it was really a setup?
Maybe there should be increased self policing or something? The worst thing is if innocent people are getting their stuff damaged by this.
Thanks to everyone out there protesting sensibly.
G_j
(40,432 posts)Tried and true, they will continue these tactics without a shade of doubt, as long as they work, much more effective than when they wear their uniforms and pepper spray and beat people.
crazyjoe
(1,191 posts)if the vandals were cops, and the uniformed cops were in on it, that means the cops are clearly on the side of the 1%, which may be true for some, but certainly not all.
but literally hundreds of people would have to know that the guys were cops, and to leave them alone to do their dirty work. not one whistle blower????with proof?
They may not have been OWS'ers, but they are not cops either....
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Uniformed cops don't necessarily need to know which individuals in the crowd are planted. They just would need to receive instructions like when to start and stop enforcing laws, and which ones. There is no reason not to believe it since in has been a common occurence at all the globalization protests. Plants have sometimes been seen getting dropped off or picked up by police, and caught on video.
crazyjoe
(1,191 posts)all disruptors are plants from local police, FBI, CIA, right wing supported operatives, ect....
It makes us look dumb and nobody's buying it.
Let's face it, there are plenty of bored college kids that aspire to be anarchists, because it's sounds cool and it's something to do. Accusing some right wind government agency is kinda silly, don't ya think ?
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Don't believe it if you don't want to, no big deal.
I agree with you that fixating on it doesn't get us anywhere, because the general public doesn't believe it or doesn't care. Like I said upthread, we need a strategy that will work even in the face of this kind of disruption, or a better way to counter it somehow.
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe there is no better way to counter it beyond what is already being done.
Yes some of these disruptors are not planted, but are just angry people and they mistakenly think this is a good protest tactic. Maybe some are, as you said, "bored college kids" who just think it's cool. Just say I rebuke you and move on.
Also I really wish people wouldn't use the word 'anarchist' as if it is synonymous with violence. Anarchists are mostly peaceful people.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)I have had the pleasure to meet & converse with many anarchists since Occupy started. Their outlook & behavior has (for the most part) been exemplary. Even the term "black bloc" is thrown around carelessly. I have changed my mind about how I view these terms.
I hope in the future we (as a progressive community) will get a little informed about our brothers/sisters in the movement for social justice, and not demonize them as a group.
Many of the folks in Food not Bombs are anarchists and they bring free, great-tasting, healthy food out to Occupy's GAs on a regular basis. Just as an example.
I saw such terminology being used as a divide and conquer tactic, it's good that people recognize it's not a proper broad brush to use.
Occupy has been sustained by a lot of anarchists. FnB is a purely anarchist organization as well as ABC (anarchist black cross, ever get someone bringing milk to you to cleanse your eyes with mace, it's very likely ABC or someone trained by an ABCer, I've been involved in an ABC, it's a fantastic group when the cops get violent).
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Yep.
J.H. Kostelni of Farina restaurant on 18th Street said he had seen squad cars at the front and the back of a group of about 30 people who threw paint and eggs at his windows and overturned his outdoor tables.
"It looked like police were escorting them," Kostelni said. "They didn't stop them."
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/05/01/BAQF1OBH55.DTL#ixzz1tmK87AfR