Occupy Underground
Related: About this forum"Occupy SEC" Heads up LEO! Is this group "for Real" or Not?
Heads Up "Leopold's Ghost!"
I just watched "Democracy Now" with Amy Goodwin where Alexis Goldsmith seemed to be in charge of OWS/SEC..(she admitted she's not sanctioned by OWS, but their group went ahead and did work to post a refute of "Dodd/Frank" and to petition to get a "Full" ..."VOLKER RULE" back into place to counteract what President Clinton did when Clinton got the vote to get Glass-Steagall Repealed in his second term (when he was under threat of Monica Backlash)
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Then I did a search on Alexis Goldsmith (who had appeared on Democracy Now) and found she'd ALSO appeared on "Up" show on MSNBC with Chris Hayes which shows on early MSNBC on Weekends and she'd laid out her case there for RESTORE GLASS-STEAGALL.) She caveated her role as "former Wall Street Employee" with how her "message" hasn't been approved by OWS Movement...but, she felt she had to do it on her own...but she has many supporters in doing this.
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Here's an example of a "subgroup of OWS" going ROGUE. They don't CLEAR THIS with their OWS GROUP but go off and DO THEIR OWN THING?
(CAVEAT: In this case I would applaud what she did...but, that she didn't CLEAR IT FIRST with OWS Original Movement ...worries me. Especially since we now that Goldberg guy is trying to TAKE OVER OWS for his own ends.
BUT...that "Democracy Now" and "Chris Hayes" gave her AIR TIME ...BIG...I'm wondering about this.
WHAT DO YOU THINK? Because we know the "MOVEMENT" is very prone to being corrupted by interests that go ROGUE.
I loved the Attention to OWS from both sites....but, I'm always, these days, covering my back.
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What We Did
Occupy the SEC has submitted a 325 page letter to the SEC, FDIC, the Federal Reserve and the OCC, to comment on the notice of proposed rulemaking for the Volcker Rule. In our comment letter, we answered 244 out of 395 questions asked by the Agencies.
The Agencies involved in the Volcker rulemaking process have an historic opportunity to redress many of the economic wrongs of the past, and create a future that privileges the interests of the many rather than the few. We ask that the Agencies vigorously implement the considerable responsibilities that have been discharged to them by Congress, remain faithful to the statutes intent and consider the comments contained in this letter.
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Listed vs. OTC: Why the NYSE is not the Problem
Posted on February 23, 2012 by alexis
At the heart of the 2008 crash were a number of opaque, complex products with three-letter acronyms: MBS, CDO, and CDS. These products that have devastated our economy all have one very important thing in common: they were all traded over-the-counter (OTC).
One defines an OTC product by what it is not: if it is not traded on any financial exchange, its an OTC product. Since it is not traded on a public exchange, an OTC product is nothing more than a handshake between two people and a legal document outlining the terms of the trade.
You can think of an OTC trade as a bespoke suit. Instead of going to a department store and buying something off the rack, in a set size that may not fit you, you visit a tailor, who makes a custom suit tailored just to you. Because its tailor-made, youre going to have to pay more for it.
READ MORE AT.....
http://occupythesec.nycga.net/
EDITED for missing Parens......
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Sounds counter to what OWS is all about.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)at the GA and then a consensus is reached. Worked great so far, for all the actions taken. If another group is doing something but was never present at a GA, then there is no consensus from Occupy so that should be made clear. Or, that group can go to a GA and see if they can get assistance from OWS. That has happened many times.
Re the OP, I haven't really read it through, so can't say what the situation is yet.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)I think I gave the link to her interview in DN..in OP.
(FWIW...I think she was being honest)...but, it's hard to know these days.
BTW...I'm totally with her on restoring "Glass -Steagall"....but, since she's renegade to original OWS and that's Leopold's Ghosts question about "the Movement" is why I'm posting asking about it.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)which is fine, and she does seem honest to me. Plus her ideas are good. So, I'm going to read it again as I'm not sure what the problem is.
Btw, KoKo, it's really great to see you here
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Does the GA for Oakland speak to the GA of Tacoma? I visited Occupy Tacoma last week. Damn those kids have spunk. My heart goes out to all of them.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:35 AM - Edit history (1)
Open to all, no leaders, peaceful, transparent GAs, and consensus reached on actions at GAs.
Though Occupy has an organic organizational construct, this is the model that (as I have witnessed and I follow dozens of Occupy groups) that has been adopted.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)isn't any reason why she cannot be part of or start a different Ocuppy group, the more the better. Maybe she doesn't realize that? I have just skimmed the article, but I don't see a problem with another group. One group doesn't need permission from another to take action on a particular issue.
I will read it again as I was rushing out before when I read it and I'm not sure what the issue is really.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)If said thing is not in keeping with the principles of Occupy
(in the opinion of any given Occupy), then they should not
claim to be affiliated with Occupy.
Moreover, if they want to be affiliated with Occupy but do not
wish to use the GA process or be connected to an existing GA,
then most local Occupy's will ask that they specify that they
are a separate group, preferably one which is in support of
Occupy (assuming that Occupy is also in support of them.)
This is to prevent co-optation. Otherwise, someone could start a KKK
chapter and call it "Occupy The South" or start a chapter devoted to
centrist political issues with no real support for Occupy ideals and
call it "Occupy {suburban} County" and refuse to communicate
with other existing Occupy's because they only want to focus
on issues affecting "their" voters... or something.
Does that help?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)when it said "she didnt clear it with the GA". I'm on track.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:43 AM - Edit history (1)
that discusses its proposals and acts on them after reaching consensus. In my opinion any Occupy group can be 3 people or 3000 people as long as the process is open to all interested participants and transparent. If Occupy SEC organizes separately from OWS (rather than as a working group), they wouldn't need "official sanction" from any OWS group. But, if they want to operate as a working group (and the benefits of funding, PR, people, etc.) then they should also do the hard work of communicating and getting sanction via consensus for their initiatives through the GA and their OWS community at large.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)but that lots of members of Occupy are actively participating in.
That's just how things roll.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)It sounds like she's trying to form a group devoted to this, more power to her... she's clear that it wasn't "approved" by Occupy, but I think it would help for groups like this to go TO an Occupy GA and have some sort of process in place for determining gradations of involvement. I.e. can we use the name, can we go off and do our own thing, can we do our own thing but be in solidarity with Occupy, etc. I think there is already in NY? The problem with the 99% Declaration seems to be that the guy is patently dishonest. Here, in this case, she seems sincere and if there's a disagreement over what to focus on, then it comes down to figuring out what's Occupy and what groups are "supportive of Occupy"? It'll also help if groups like this at least try to be horizontal, even if they don't intend to work thru the GA, but more important is that they should get approval from a GA to use the Occupy name.
Just because Occupy doesn't have a central leadership doesn't mean anyone should go off and start up anything and call it Occupy. They may have the "right" to do so but expect to be called down on it, right?
There's a group in suburban MD that wants to start an Occupy... they want to focus only on "Maryland issues" like "student rights" (i.e. what they see as middle-class issues for respectable, middle-class people) and not maintain a relationship with Occupy groups in DC. What does THAT say?? I'm not even sure what "issues that only affect our state/county" mean in the context of Occupy.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)It seems to bring up the issue of "OWS" being used for many kind of actions by people who want to seem to operate under the banner of OWS to bring attention to issues (that affect the people) which have not been satisfied by our courts, Congress or given proper attention by our Corporate MSM.
OWS gives groups of people with issues they feel haven't been addressed a large umbrella with a logo to gain some attention to their cause. Problem is (as you addressed in your post about "99% Declaration" that some groups could begin to use OWS for their own cause and thereby eventually cause the "OWS" movement to become fractionalized, diluted or even taken over and rebranded into something that corporate MSM (and various entities) could use to undermine the movement in the future. Yet, a rigid structure where every group has to wait to be cleared by a GA Board or Governance could also be problematic.
It will be interesting to see how it turns out. I love the idea of a large Umbrella with the OWS Logo that gives groups cover since the movement is leaderless, but it sure is going to be hard to figure how this works going forward.
What does one do with this group in Maryland? It almost sounds like they are "Tea Party" people who became disenchanted with that group and are now hoping to try "OWS" hoping that will give them a voice? But, that's an example of what does OWS really mean?
Quote:
"There's a group in suburban MD that wants to start an Occupy... they want to focus only on "Maryland issues" like "student rights" (i.e. what they see as middle-class issues for respectable, middle-class people) and not maintain a relationship with Occupy groups in DC. What does THAT say?? I'm not even sure what "issues that only affect our state/county" mean in the context of Occupy.[/i}
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Who want "their" Occupy to focus on issues that matter to people like them... "ordinary middle class people with jobs" as they put it, and not try and work across the line with folks in the nations capital (despite that being the source of the moolah that most of these professional activists use to afford to live in MD.) In short, people like Kevin Zeese, whose heart may be in the right place but are being hopelessly self-centered and ideological in their approach. JMHO.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 26, 2012, 06:58 PM - Edit history (1)
Problem is the Mid Atlantic is trying to start up lots of neighborhood GAs as if it were NY, but if there isn't enough activist participation initially to ensure community buy-in, so the groups are not really communicating because there's not enough already-involved community activists (especially techie activists) with roots in the community to bridge the gap. When the camps were raided in DC (presumably on orders from on high), half the "sleepers" immediately decamped to other Occupy's in warmer climes. So things are sparse there until the national Occupy in March.
alexisgo
(3 posts)Hi KoKo,
Alexis Goldstein here.
I totally understand your concern and appreciate the spirit of it. I am wary myself of some projects that look to potentially be co-opting the occupy name (for example, I wasn't sure what was going on with the recent Occupy Super PAC I read about in the news...). You have sparked an interesting discussion and I appreciate all the things people have said. Lots of good stuff in here.
I just wanted to take some time to try and tell you a bit more about us.
We are a Working Group within the NYC-based Occupy Wall Street movement. You can find our nycga page at: http://www.nycga.net/groups/occupy-the-sec/
OWS (in NYC) has two major documents/statements that have been approved by the NYC General Assembly, the Declaration of the Occupation, and our Principles of Solidarity, both of which you can find here:
http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/
http://www.nycga.net/resources/principles-of-solidarity/
As you can see from the Statement of Autonomy, OWS encourages people to speak with us, and work together, as long as they do not try and speak FOR OWS:
http://www.nycga.net/resources/statement-of-autonomy/
Working groups at OWS are autonomous, and free to work on what they wish, as long as they do not try to speak for OWS without going through the GA, and as long as they do not violate the Declaration of the Occupation nor the Principles of Solidarity.
Occupy the SEC has been explicit in every interview that we do NOT, and CANNOT, speak for OWS without going through the NYC General Assembly. We state on page one of the letter that "Occupy the SEC (http://occupythesec.org) is a group within the New York-based Occupy Wall Street ('OWS')
protest movement. This letter represents the opinion of our groups members, and does not represent the viewpoints of OWS as a whole"
I hope that helps.
As a side note, we have been featured in the OWS's newspaper, in a piece we wrote for the Occupied Wall St Journal, and most recently in Occupy New Haven and cross-posted on the Occupied Washington Times:
http://occupiedmedia.us/2012/02/occupy-the-volcker-rule/
http://owt.occupydc.org/occupy-activists-work-to-enforce-volcker-rule/
Hope that clarifies some things. We do have only the best of intentions and are NOT trying to speak on behalf of OWS, as no one can without going through the NYC GA!
All the best,
Alexis
KoKo
(84,711 posts)As a follower of the writings of Barry Ritholtz, (The Big Picture Blog),Yves Smith (Naked Capitalism Blog), William Black's work and others....I feel it's crucially important to keep working to get meaningful re-regulation of our markets in place in order to prevent a future credit disaster from happening perpetuated by another group of rogue Wall Streeters at the investment banks and elsewhere. Without critical oversight from the regulating agencies and meaningful prosecutions as a deterrent we still have the foxes guarding the farmer's hen houses but only paying fines for every chicken they eat.
I was glad to see you speaking out about this in your interview on Democracy Now (as I said in my OP) and I wish OWS/SEC all the best. Believe me, I am cheering for you and any one else who is keeping the heat on the Regulators, DOJ and Congress to not keep treating what happened after the demise of Glass-Steagall (helping to cause the biggest financial crash since Great Depression) as "old news" plus, the continued ignoring of prosecution for criminality of Country Wide Mortgage, Banks AIG, MERS, RoboSigners, Regulators and Ratings Agencies who looked the other way, and the like. Financial Settlements being the New Normal will only allow those who caused this misery we are living through to live another day and possibly do it all over again.
Good to See OWS in action where it began! Hope to see you interviewed again..
Best to you and regards,
KoKo
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I remember that the GA in Zuccotti Park did discuss people working in groups, and in fact often separated into different groups but when an issue affected the movement in general, they were encouraged to bring it to a GA for consensus.
Thank you very much for taking the trouble to come here and answer the questions people have.
I did see that your group was not claiming to speak for OWS. Do you think the GA would approve of Occupy the SEC, was there a reason for not making it an OWS action? I know they have a lot on their agenda, but just wondered if this ever came up at an OWS GA.
Again, your comment is very much appreciated
alexisgo
(3 posts)Hey Sabrina,
Since the letter was so long (325 pages) we had no idea how to present it to the GA. It wasn't feasible to read it out loud (way too long) or print out tons of copies. I also had seen groups like the Constitution Working Group bring long proposals to the GA before, where they asked folks to read a 7-ish page document ahead of time, but there were still lots of people at the GA who hadn't seen it, and thus it was unclear how to get consensus (they never got consensus on it).
In the draft of the Volcker Rule, the Agencies (The SEC, FDIC, OCC and the Fed) ask 395 questions. One thing we DID want to do is pick 3-4 questions and bring those to the GA and do what's called breakout groups, where the GA takes 10-20 minutes, has everyone split up into groups of 10 or so, and answer questions on a piece of paper. This is something we wanted to do but we just ran out of time. If we'd had time, and had done this, how it would have worked is that we would have compiled the answers from the breakout groups, and then brought a draft back to the GA for perhaps another round of feedback, and then eventually presented a final document as an OWS Comment Letter on Volcker.
That was the idea, but again, we just didn't have the time to make it happen.
I hope that makes sense and answers your question about was there a reason for not making it an OWS action.
Best,
Alexis
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I read the Occupied WSJ and the Occupied Washington Times articles, both of which are excellent and both of which referred very positively to what you are doing. I think it is great also.
I see the time constraints you had which left you with no choice.
I hope you did not mind people asking questions, it was not personal at all and just an attempt to find the facts. Which you have supplied beautifully and for which I am very grateful. Now we can refute any negative reporting as we often see even here, with facts. It seems you have put a lot of thought into this, and about how to work with OWS.
I could see this being used as an attempt to create the impression that the movement is becoming splintered. That is why your coming here with the facts is so helpful.
Good luck with what you are doing, we will be following your progress with interest.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Do you know if it is possible to order that? I have tried to find a way to do that, but so far have failed. I understand if mailing out issues across the country is more than they can handle right now. I will donate anyhow, but would love to receive it in the mail.
Hey Sabrina,
I don't know about getting a physical copy but you can definitely read it online: http://occupiedmedia.us/
Let me see what I can find out about paper copies...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)were reading on the subway etc. It is a great project and would love to support it.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Not being in NY, alas, I have missed everything up there. I second sabrina on the issue of having access to the Occupied newspaper up there since my computer access is limited right now so I mostly get news from our local Occupy, message boards, and blogs. I think someone on another thread here (including me) was talking about the idea of having regional printing agreements to distribute copies of the newspaper, perhaps even on enviro-friendly material...
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)I would hope that others would read what she's trying to do with "Occupy SEC."
So...I'm going to give this a little boost hoping that folks will read what she replied.