This forum is the only reason I haven't left DU.

[Flying Squirrel]

I refuse to post in GD or Politics 2013 anymore.

I'm gonna leave the rest of my original text here:

I honestly wish Obama had let the country slip into another Great Depression. What he's doing now is simply prolonging our misery. He's like the enabler who prevents an alcoholic from hitting bottom.

This country is too far gone to come back through ordinary political means. Only when the people have nothing left to lose will they be emboldened (en masse) to rise up and dismantle the corrupt system. Until then, any attempt to keep any portion of the New Deal intact does nothing but prolong this Chinese Water Torture.

At this point I'd like to see the Democratic Party stop deluding itself into thinking it is at all helping matters on those rare occasions when it actually fights against the corporatist takeover of America. I'd like to see us hit bottom, because only then can we truly wake up, wipe the cobwebs from our eyes and do what needs to be done.

This post can be hidden, but the truth behind it will remain.

Unfortunately, in attempting to defend this position, I've come up smack against another truth.

Both Doncoquixote and rhett o rick suggested that people might turn to the right instead of the left if a second Depression occurred. My first instinct was, this was simply not possible. Then I started to respond to the issue of my supposedly advocating people dying simply to further my own political agenda, by pointing out that people were already dying - just a few at a time instead of all at once - and that 4,000 killed in the WTC bombing caused major changes while twice as many killed over a year's period does nothing to change handgun laws.

As I'm sure you're beginning to see, I couldn't finish the post because I vehemently disagree with the resulting changes which resulted from the WTC bombing - and the re-election of George W. Bush shows the number of insane and ignorant people in this country, therefore I can not effectively argue that people would turn to the left nor that they would avoid turning toward a dictator. I can not effectively argue that we would end up with a New New Deal, because the country has changed since the 1930's - and has changed in favor of ignorance and government-sanctioned propaganda on our public airwaves. I can't predict a new FDR-like savior, nor that the country would rally behind him/her.

So I will take back my post opining that Obama should have let a second Depression occur. However, this does not mean in any way that I support what he has done in terms of the financial state of this country.

[Warpy]

1. I posted last night that we'll have to be content with social progress

at least for the short term. Governments are not proactive, they're reactive and they won't make the sweeping changes we need until they're faced with catastrophe and angry mobs.

I think the derivatives casino will have to collapse and take everything with it for Congress and the Presidency to do any of the things that have needed to be done for so long.

[Cleita]

2. Sadly, I think you are right.

It would take a large segment of the population to get their attention and people are so misinformed these days that they aren't seeing what is being done to them. I went to the gym today and spent my whole time working out arguing with people about Social Security and Medicare because they are getting the CNN or Fox News version of what is going on. I really feel alone sometimes because no one else in my orbit seems to know what is going on.

One of the women's husband got cancer and she is just getting the bills and finding out that they don't want to pay. They are also trying to bait and switch her by offering different plans. I told her whatever she did, DON'T DO IT before 2014 because if she drops the coverage they have now, he probably will be rejected because of a pre-existing condition. It's a jungle out there.

[kardonb]

30. not sad

you people always expect miracles overnight. There is no such thing . We are dealing with people and human nature , neither of which have ever changed . So , lets deal with reality her ; progress does not happen overnight , it takes TIME , and hard work , and compromises . Quit complaining about everything , put your shoulder to the wheel , and eventually we will achieve at least some of our goals .

[jtuck004]

32. >you people< ?? Who the fuck are you? n/t

[truedelphi]

4. I trhnk the derivatives collapse the first time around

Pretty much did us in.

Right now, 49 cents out of every dollar of profit goes to either a Big Bank, or a Big Financial Firm.

Back in the Nineteen eighties, that amount out of every dollar of profit was only eight cents.

The middle class is being pushed into oblivion.

And I have asked for this several times before, but will ask again - if anyone here doesn't think Obama is responsible, then please post for us the photos of his arm being twisted by Republicans while he made those damnable and destructive appointments (i.e., Geithner's appointment, Bernanke's re-appointment, and now Jack Lew.)

[Skittles]

3. I hear your frustration, Flying Squirrel

I am astounded by the number of DUers thinking everything is A-OK because they are unable to separate their admiration for Obama from critical thinking regarding what is really happening - I hate to think you are correct, that only when we hit bottom will they see the light - but I fear you may be correct

[Demeter]

5. I invite you to check out the Stock Market Watch and Weekend Economists threads

daily appearing in the Economy forum.

You will find a lot in common and a lot of support for Occupy there, too.

It's far more wide-ranging than it sounds...because we are such busy-bodies! I think you will feel at home there.

And it's an education, guaranteed. Almost painless (if you don't think about it too hard for too long, then it's straight into the pits of despair...)

and Koolaid is not served (at least, not without a heavy does of sarcasm).

[formercia]

6. A person with Nothing

Has Nothing to lose.

[Jackpine Radical]

22. A point well-known to Macchiavelli

but forgotten by the modern Princes.

[WheelWalker]

26. Like a rolling stone.

[DonCoquixote]

7. I honestly wish Obama had let the country slip into another Great Depression

And you assume that deseprate people would turn to the left, right than to the right?
and you assume that the people who would die in a great depressions are just a price to pay, it will relive YOUR misery, but kill someones else mother father sister brother son uncle or aunt?

[Flying Squirrel]

10. Would you rather the Great Depression had not happened

and, therefore, the New Deal had not happened? And that you would be living right now in the same kind of country that existed before the New Deal?

People will die. This is not preventable. Perhaps it's merciful that they die more quickly, rather than a slow, lingering, painful death. Regardless, people are going to die - and I may be one of them.

60 million people died in WWII. Should we have just let the Nazis take over, kill the Jews and spread throughout Europe? I'm sure if the world had simply let them take over, the number of deaths would have been fewer... in the short term.

[DonCoquixote]

31. playing with time and human life

allow me to analye this:

You said:
"and, therefore, the New Deal had not happened? And that you would be living right now in the same kind of country that existed before the New Deal? "

First, are you so sure the New deal would not have happened?, do not forget the socialists were not exactly shrinking away. Especialy with Europe ready to boil over into something (maybe not exactly the WW II we know, but the chances that some war between England, Germany and Russia would not happen was not likely, and our chance of not being involved were also unlikely.) However, the point is, you cannot say that if there was no great depression, there would have been a new deal, unless you have some hotline to the fates.

You said:
People will die. This is not preventable. Perhaps it's merciful that they die more quickly, rather than a slow, lingering, painful death. Regardless, people are going to die - and I may be one of them.

And who are YOU to judge that a lot of people dying is a good thing? Death is not preventable, but massive deaths, and please, let us not deny that depressions cause anythign BUT massive deaths, are at the very least, able to be lessened. Every person that died in the Great depression is someone whose life had value.

You said:
60 million people died in WWII. Should we have just let the Nazis take over, kill the Jews and spread throughout Europe? I'm sure if the world had simply let them take over, the number of deaths would have been fewer... in the short term.

Actually, a Great Depression prolonged WWII, as we were not in a psotion to stop Hitler without a lot of rehab. And let us not forget that the reason an Austrian washed up art student was able to win a lot of hearts is because Germany was starving. You cannot say that the great depression did not cause WWII, and every bit of carnage, from nanking to Auschwitz.

And also, let's not forget that as much harm as Stalin did, he could have always done worse. As much of a socialiost as I am, the depressing fact is that from Geroge bernard Shaw, to Woody Guthrie, many socialists really misjudged just how insane Stalin was. Do we want to see what he could have done with a years more time?

The point is not to play the parlor game of what if, the point is to show that playing games with people's lives is deadly..a man named Eric Hoffer said it best:

"those who are willing to sacrifice a generation to realize an ideal are the enemies of mankind."

[sangsaran]

13. I think the idea is...

Right now, we're just prolonging the inevitable.

People are suffering now, and nothing seems to be changing our course. It would be better to hit rock bottom as soon as possible, so we can start climbing back up.

...I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can see why some might think that way.

[bvar22]

15. In the OP's defense,

....people ARE already dying....Right-this-Minute,
all to protect the profits of the giant corporations and Too-Big-to-Fails
because our Political leaders are so intertwined with the interests of the 1%
they lack the courage to bite the hand that feeds them.

40,000 Americans will die this year due to lack of Health CARE.
MILLIONS MORE will be condemned to barely surviving as frightened wage slaves,
indentured to low paying, no benefits "employment" in our Race-to-the-Bottom.
Brand New "Free Trade" treaties were approved by Congress last week,
and a HUGE NEW Free Trade Extravaganza is in the works (Pacific Rim).

"Oh...but we have been assured these new treaties will contain "protections" for the environment and LABOR."... Laughing and crying at the gullibility of Americans.

This is TODAY.
RIGHT THIS MINUTE,
and while Wall Street has recovered nicely,
110% of that recovery went into the pockets of the 1%,
as the Working Class/Working Poor couldn't even break even...
ALL by design.

The OP has some genuine points.

Would you prefer a slow painful death,
or a quick mercy killing?

[fascisthunter]

8. It's a sad time for most who have nothing else... we see the truth

those who live comfortably will only see it when they have nothing left, and they are determined to never allow that to happen. Just don't expect much... I no longer expect folks to care or give a shit. It doesn't make me feel better, but it keeps from being as frustrated as I used to be. Just work your own way to make things better, that will make you feel better. DU is saturated with a very small minority who seem to be immune to any real rules... they are here for one reason only.

[NYC Liberal]

9. "I honestly wish Obama had let the country slip into another Great Depression"

Holy shit.

This is one of the most callous posts I've seen around here in a long while.

You'd let potentially millions go hungry - and even die - in the name of furthering your own political agenda? Truly disgusting.

[Flying Squirrel]

12. See post 10. Why don't you hide my OP?

Then you and others can shield your eyes from the uncomfortable truth.

[NYC Liberal]

17. Who said I wanted to hide your OP?

If I were on the jury I would vote to leave it. No rules broken, no reason to hide.

You posted your opinion and I posted mine.

[rhett o rick]

11. I understand your frustration. I have gone to that place myself on more than one occasion.

However, I dont think it will work. You are assuming that once we hit rock bottom the apathetic will awaken. When this happens they may not choose democracy. Dictatorships look good to those that are totally destitute. Dictators (Bush/Cheney) looked good to a lot of Americans when we thought we were merely under attack. It will require that Americans suffer a lot before we reach rock bottom.

We need to draw the line and fight from here as best we can.

[Flying Squirrel]

14. I agree that we should keep fighting

I just wish we had someone on our side in the White House.

[sangsaran]

21. I'm not sure any amount of suffering will improve our chances in the long term.

No matter what cause the American people unite under, if we're not careful... Countless leaders have portrayed themselves in a far better light than they later came to show, and some of them have been very good at it. (Obama, for example.)

The most important thing is to invest our trust in no single person, no small group. Only those with their own agenda would pursue power, and there's never any guarantee their agenda aligns with our interests at all, no matter what they say.

Power does not corrupt; the corrupt seek power.

[rhett o rick]

23. Sorry I dont understand. Elites rule. They always have and they always will. We just have to find

elites that either respect us or fear us.

[Laelth]

27. +1 n/t

-Laelth

[Politicub]

16. Now I've seen everything

Wish he would have let us slide into a depression?

We're all entitled to our own opinion - but wow.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. Actually, you should be lamenting that "Job #1" has been to restore Wall Street...

There is a fiction in this country that the Great Depression was triggered by the Wall Street Crash of '29 so Washington figures it's first priority is to protect Wall Street and the People will benefit.

It's the Original "Trickle Down" theory.

[dtom67]

19. already left once...

when I was censored for saying that weakening SS was an impeachable offense in my opinion. Self-deleted it all.

Certainly hard to understand how any elected official can justify " entitlement" cuts when it is so obviously the wrong thing to do. You know something is wrong when the facts stare your leaders in the face and they pretend not to notice. It is corruption, pure and simple.

There will be no uprising, though. There may be violence, but we will direct it at one-another; not the true Enemy. The people are too well controlled by the crushing debt and endless media propaganda.When we protest, we go to government buildings. We should be going to one of the Koch brothers houses, or some other oligarch's home. they are the ones that really run things.

Tar and feathers all around !

People continue to participate in this system because they have the false belief that it is a Democracy. The Elites need us to keep believing this because they are vastly out numbered. This is actually a minor weakness for them; they need to maintain a facade of "freedom and democracy" whilst pursuing their agenda. so, occasionally , they have to give us something to keep us on the hook. But their Global Ponzi economy is unsustainable; soon, no amount of money printing will prevent collapse.

There will be no uprising, however.

Who would lead it?


Believe me, right now the internet is being scoured in order to answer this question.

watch what you post ....

[Jackpine Radical]

24. Who led Occupy?

Nobody. Everybody.

That's who will lead this time.

That's the beauty of the system that is now evolving. It has so far proved oligarch-proof.

[dtom67]

29. Occupy has promise, but..

when faced with infiltration, persecution and a militarized response, in conjunction with a near Media blackout, how will they fare? unfortunately, most of the people I know don't even realize Occupy still exists.

I certainly hope they can make a difference, I just think that the odds are against them.

I have no answers; I'm just a guy stuck on the hamster wheel. I really just wanted to point out that an "uprising" isn't necessarily going work. Also thought the post implied a basic collapse of the system was necessary,which would preclude the efficacy of a protest/Media event being successful. In such a situation, i
I would expect the internet would be unavailable.

I admit, I'm not very optimistic about an Occupy vs SHTF scenario .

I know...."hope springs Eternal ".

I hope so...

[kickysnana]

35. I have seen to spontaneous miracles of unity in my time

The first was in November 2000 when in just two weeks the Lyme Community came together in Manhattan great numbers in wheelchairs, with walkers, IVs, etc to protest Alan Steere getting a Clinitian of the Year Award. We were protesting because Steere flat out lied about Lyme Disease for power and money and is still causing untold suffering. And the press showed up for a change despite the (s)election. The publisher of Newseek Zucker/Zuckerman? showed up in a limo to attend the event, stopped got on his cell phone and most of the press then departed, like evil magic. I just was following online with that one.

The second time they were planning an antiwar March from the Cathedral of St Paul down the hill to the State Capital. It was well organized but when Wellstone was killed the crowd swelled to what was reported to be over 10,000 when newspapers were cutting estimates to 50% of what actually was happening. Busloads from churches and other sympathetic organizations were there to try to stop the war and honor Paul Wellstone who spoke out against the war.

But sometimes we do succeed and we do have to keep trying. When the head of the CIA deliberately signs in on the Constitution without the bill of rights that has to a bad sign.

[craigmatic]

20. You're right but the people will never rise up they're too tired from work.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. The time will come when they have no work.

That s when they will rise up.

The Kristofferson Principle (as popularized by Janis Joplin):

"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose."

[Auggie]

28. Or food. Enter peak oil and climate change into the equation ...

and all those assualt rifles out there.

Fun times are a'comin, folks!

[tiredtoo]

33. unfortunately this is not a light switch situation

The right wing has spent millions of dollars and years of time brainwashing the general public. We have a tremendous battle ahead of us. We should not expect a change just from flipping a switch. We have a mountain to move and it is going to take some time. Each small step brings us closer to our goal. The occupy movement is a step in the right direction and the emotions are still there in spite of what appears to be an end of the movement. We are making progress, Elizabeth Warren is a good example as is Alan Grayson. Carry on my friend carry on.

[caseymoz]

34. Read Howard Zinn's

People's History of the United States.

What that book will show you is that the US has been trying to move Left since its founding, and it has been forced to the Right.

There's no way the people who held strikes in the 19th century were less ignorant than the people in the country today. And if there's one thing I've seen about Right since Reagan, and that's Conservatism makes you stupid. I mean, look at the absolute leaders among conservatives: George W. Bush, Herman Cain, Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann . . . those are the children of Reagan. They're either dumb, mendacious, crooks or two or more of the above.

The trend seems to be away from the Right. Moreover, it seems that right-wing extremism is a temporary condition. Not that we shouldn't fight, because it can do a huge amount of damage and create great misery before it runs its course.

You probably would want to follow Howard Zinn's book with Thaddeus Russell's A Renegade History of the US.

[motocicleta2]

36. Kevin Phillips Wealth and Democracy builds a similar argument.

Politics has always been shaped by forceful shoves, by money, to the right.

I think the reason things are going left now, though, is hopeful: ignorance simply cannot stand in the path of the democratization of information that is the interwebs. It is getting too easy to be informed. No amount of idiocy is safe when one has access to a search engine. I used to argue a lot with conservatives in the Iraq War runup and start. Many were older. Now I see many of the idiots are young, often high school age. This is incredibly hopeful to me, because I see those loudest are also demographically incredibly outnumbered. And likely to change their minds the longer they try to sustain their beliefs which will be constantly challenged with cognitive-dissonance-causing truth.

[caseymoz]

38. I would like to believe that, but . . .

. . . yes, we have the Web, but the problem is, the slowest damn thing in the process is the human mind, and the country is simply doing its damndest to make it slower. Many kids are not functionally literate, and don't have attention spans long enough to absorb a lot of information.

And there are some other worrying trends. Obesity in the youth population will mean that there's going to be a higher mortality rate. It means that demographically, the younger generation is probably not going to have the election impact people anticipate.

But, I don't know. All that works together chaotically and every prediction may be wrong, mine, yours, the worst case scenario along with the best one.

[motocicleta2]

37. I missed DU.

I used to be motocicleta, but I can't remember my password and don't have the old email account. Anyway, this kind of thread is exactly what I love about DU. Thoughtful people, thought-provoking topics, good community.
That's my take on your dilemma, FS. This place ain't perfect, but it can be awesome - in certain doses.

[sabrina 1]

39. I could not agree more, with you and with the OP. This forum is one of the main

reasons I still come here. I feel bad that I have not been posting OPs her myself and so much appreciate Fire's work keeping it going. I have been busy, moving across the country etc.

Anyhow, thanks for you comment. I intend to spend more time helping to keep this forum going as soon as I have more time.

[In_The_Wind]

41. Hello ~ motocicleta2. Nice to see you back again at DU.

[IMG][/IMG]

In The Wind
[img][/img]

[motocicleta2]

42. Thanks!

(grin)

[In_The_Wind]

43. Indeed!

[Fire Walk With Me]

40. Look at Greece and the neo-NAZI "golden dawn" party, and until recently

the Goldman Sacks lackey in charge of Italy, and his henchmen scattered around Europe in government and banking.

When you look at America, you are looking at Personal Convenience as a main motivating factor. Helping Others is another but it doesn't factor in this particular equation. When Personal Convenience is directly assaulted, people will be unhappy and want it to change. When it becomes bad enough, people will scream for change. Unfortunately the powers that be fully understand this sadistic possibility and opportunity: you can purposefully create the causes and conditions in which people will demand Change no matter what, and will jump to demand placed into power, any who shout that they can deliver it. Even those who have created the problem in order to be placed into power.

This has occurred two particular times in recent history:

1. The Bush Disaster Family and their ties with OPEC caused an oil embargo which made President Carter appear weak and foolish. Americans were significantly impacted and they demanded Change. Bush also managed to get reportedly get Iran to hold the hostages until Reagan took office to again make Carter appear weak and foolish. Worked like a charm and disaster waltzed right in. From Reagan we see the beginning of the destruction of unions and the middle class, the start of the long game which is currently reaching fruition.

2. The major Bush supporters Enron met with Schwarzenneger before purposefully shutting down portions of the California power grid, a series of events named "rolling blackouts". Californians wanted Change. A run-off election occurred and Schwarzenneger waltzed right in and immediately began hacking away at infrastructure serviceperson pensions and unions, schools, etc. And Enron were forgiven the rulings against them to the tune, IIRC, of pennies on the dollar.

Note that energy was involved twice, and that the right wing pulled it off. Energy and such are issues which are not effected by voting, and the right and the rich will use such lateral stunts to direct politics in their preferred direction. See the Koch brother article I posted yesterday.

Read "The Shock Doctrine" and "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room". Debt and disaster are used to ripen conditions for control and profit. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. And debt is the main tool being used as far as I can see to ripen conditions in Europe. This may be why it is seemingly impossible to get politicians to do something, anything about the $1 trillion of US student loan debt. Our young are already in their thrall.

The Citigroup "Plutonomy" memo mentions the rich wanting right-wing, anti-immigration governments which will aid in profitable globalisation efforts. The very rich are most certainly engaging in their creation as we post. Voting will not slow down these corporations. But note that the memo lists their first and most significant fear, which is of a populist uprising demanding fair income equality and action against right-wing, corporate and bank-friendly politics.

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. I'm not an economist, I'm not anything approaching an expert. I'm simply attempting to synthesize

variables long-since spotted and may be wrong or out of proportion in places. Thank you...