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billh58

(6,641 posts)
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 06:36 PM Jan 2015

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (billh58) on Thu Mar 12, 2015, 05:36 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) billh58 Jan 2015 OP
But guns don't kill people ybbor Jan 2015 #1
Inconvenient truths Shamash Jan 2015 #2
Thank you for your billh58 Jan 2015 #3
Welcome back, and goodbye again. Your minority just happens to be a REALLY LOUD minority. Electric Monk Jan 2015 #4
You miss the point of gun control mentalslavery Jan 2015 #5
reply to a ghost jimmy the one Feb 2015 #6

ybbor

(1,601 posts)
1. But guns don't kill people
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:07 PM
Jan 2015

It's the crazy people with guns who kill people, or their toddler kills them, or their sibling, or their cousin, or their neighbor, or their spouse, or their ...

 

Shamash

(597 posts)
2. Inconvenient truths
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:25 PM
Jan 2015

Disclaimer: I am not posting this to be provocative, but to hopefully have people think about it. Those who are prone to taking offense will take offense regardless, this is meant for everyone else.

According to Pew Research, which has been tracking this sort of thing for over 20 years, with the question "What do you think is more important – to protect the right of Americans to own guns, OR to control gun ownership?"

It turns out that support for gun control among non-gun owners is the same as it was 20 years ago, while support for gun rights among non-gun owners is higher now than it was 20 years ago (the undecideds, decided). Similarly, support for gun rights is up for Democrats from 20 years ago, up for college grads, up for whites, up for blacks, up for parents, up for men, up for women, and up in the northeast, south, midwest and west. Even in polls taken right after Newtown, the general opinion was that the NRA does not have too much influence on gun laws and by a 4-3 margin believed that gun ownership does more to protect people from crime than it does to put people at risk (a result which is matched by CDC studies on the matter).

Part of this attitude might come from the fact that firearm murders are declining, and have been doing so all by themselves for many years without any extra gun control laws to explain it. Again, in terms of the raw statistics, if every "assault rifle" in the country disappeared overnight and never came back, the effect on firearm homicides would be so small that you might not be able to tell it from normal year-to-year variation. This makes it somewhat problematic to get the average person (gun owner or not) highly motivated about the issue.

You may not like these results and facts, but there they are. Believe what you wish, but if a national assault weapon ban did not pass a Democratic majority Senate in the wake of Newtown (60 voted against and 14 of them were Democrats), that is a pretty tangible sign about which way the politicians think the electoral winds blow.

The OP's linked story was written right before the 2014 mid-terms. Blaming the Democratic losses on "the other guys voted more" is a nice way of absolving yourself from, pun intended, shooting yourself in the foot. In the Colorado recall elections in 2013, two Democrats from Obama+20 districts were voted out of office on a gun control issue because Democrats went to the polls for the sole purpose of voting out other Democrats. Exit polls showed that for each 100 people who voted, 60 were Democrats. And the Democrats outspent Republicans by a 6 to 1 margin. And the Democrats still lost. And Colorado senator Mark Udall(D), who heavily supported the recalled legislators, lost his seat in the 2014 midterms, contributing to our wonderful new Republican majority Senate.

According to Nate Silver, about 30% of Democrats are gun owners, myself among them. Based on averages, not a single gun owner on DU is likely to have ever been involved in criminal violence with a firearm, nor caused harm to anyone else by accident or neglect, but I have yet to see several of DU's loudest refer to any gun owner here as anything other than a "gun nut", nor have I ever seen any gun control advocate here censure anyone for doing so. Even DU comments calling for or approving of violence against gun owners go unremarked, so it seems that this 30% of Democrats is "the enemy" and so any comment is acceptable.

I know that there are polite gun control advocates here at DU who have done their research and put a lot of thought into the issue, because I have had useful private discussions with them. But unfortunately, they are not the ones driving the public narrative and thus are not the ones that the public will see as the face of the issue. Is alienating 3 out of 10 Democrats a winning strategy for 2016?

As I said at the top of the message, it is something to think about.

billh58

(6,641 posts)
3. Thank you for your
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:36 PM
Jan 2015

reasoned response, but contrary to your advice I will continue to advocate for much needed gun control measures in this country. Incidentally, you are violating the SOP of this Group, but then again you knew that didn't you?

You sound very familiar...

ETA: 22% of Democratic households have guns:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/07/15/the-demographics-and-politics-of-gun-owning-households/

Americans with a gun at home also differ politically from other adults. Republicans are twice as likely as Democrats to be members of a gun-owning household. Political independents also are more likely than Democrats to have a firearm in their homes.


And that does not mean that they vote with the right-wing gun lobby on gun control issues as gunners like to imply.

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
4. Welcome back, and goodbye again. Your minority just happens to be a REALLY LOUD minority.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:45 PM
Jan 2015

Another poster only here to espouse the virtues of guns and gun culture has been now blocked from the Group.

/ GCRA Host

 

mentalslavery

(463 posts)
5. You miss the point of gun control
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:08 PM
Jan 2015

Which at times is really regulation of people, such as laws that require certain forms of behavior, and at other times regulation over the actual product, such as laws that require certain features or ban certain features.

Thus, citing research opinion findings from pew on a broad issue such as support for "gun control" is like looking at the difference between support for "obamacare" vs support for "banning pre-existing" conditions. People do not support obamacare but want pre-existing condition clauses banned.

It is up to the left to frame the issue successfully. People generally support a restriction on criminals access to guns, different places that one can or can not take a gun, etc as well as people supporting restrictions on certain products such as products that create high-capacity/high efficiency capabilities such as an automatic assault weapon with a 100 barrel clip-etc.

Thus, it is up to liberals to frame it in a way that people understand and to design the law in a way that reflects what people actually support. The control/rights discourse is simplistic. That is not the way it actually works. Thus your concern is misguided. Also, republicans talk about shit that people don't support all the time and still win elections so its not as if being on the "other side of a particular issue" means that one will lose an election. Winning or losing an election is a complex issue and if you want to actually boil it down to one or two different factors than those factors would really be "messaging" and "GOTV".

Lastly, I have never meet anyone in my life who did not support some type of gun control. You know like "should it be illegal for someone to stand on a street corner and randomly pass out loaded firearms to anyone passing by one block from an elementary school?" If you say " yes that should be illegal", then you support gun control. If you say no, it should not then I always respond with "Great, my friends and I have been looking for stupid people like you, whats your address, we will see you tomorrow!" I have never got an address. I guess thats a case of "Not On My Block".

Your gonna have to bring it deeper here .....son........your gonna have to bring it deeper

jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)
6. reply to a ghost
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 11:57 AM
Feb 2015

shamash: Part of this attitude might come from the fact that firearm murders are declining, and have been doing so all by themselves for many years without any extra gun control laws to explain it.

You forgot the part where gun ownership rates significantly declined the very years which significant firearm & overall murder rates declined. One logical assumption can be that because gun ownership rates declined, murder rates & violent crime rates declined concomitantly.

sham:.. a national assault weapon ban did not pass a Democratic majority Senate in the wake of Newtown (60 voted against and 14 of them were Democrats)..

Since you're citing pew, here is the pew national poll on an assault weapon ban then:

"A ban on assault-style weapons" (support, oppose, no op)
5/1-5/13 ....... 54 ... 42.. 4
2/13-18/13 ...... 56 ... 41.. 3
1/9-13/13 ........ 55 ... 40 ...5
http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

This one failed to pass too: Quinnipiac: Would you support or oppose a law requiring background checks on people buying guns at gun shows or online?" Supt Oppose
4/25-29/13 ........... 83 ...13 ...3

So what you've proved, sham, is that politicians, esp republican ones, don't follow the opinions of what americans really want.



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