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rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 12:14 PM Nov 2015

The Authoritarian Personality Why do some people seem irrational in their devotion

to certain authoritative leaders regardless of what these leaders do or have done and regardless what these leaders stand for? I believe the answer is important in knowing what we are dealing with.

Eric Fromm in his essay, “The Authoritarian Personality” subscribes this behavior to authoritarian personalities. He explains that there are two distinct types of authoritarians. One that wants to rule, control, or restrain others and the other type that tends to submit and obey. In other words leaders and followers. While seemingly different these two types are bound together in a symbiotic relationship.

“What they have in common, what defines the essence of the authoritarian personality is an inability: the inability to rely on one’s self, to be independent, to put it in other words: to endure freedom.”

This would explain why some are so willing to follow leaders that obviously are not interested in freedoms or liberties, but quite the opposite. Let's face it, being free is a lot of work and too tough for some.

Authoritarian followers seek the protection, or what they see as protection, of strong authoritarian leaders. And followers will strongly defend this authority in a number of ways including the persecution of whistle-blowers, investigative journalists, protesters, and liberals in general; those that challenge authorities and seek the truth. This disturbs the followers because they don't want to deal with the truth, they really can't handle the truth.

Authoritarian leaders on the other hand, while seeming to be tough and strong, actually are nothing without their submissive followers. But hese apparently strong, tough leaders themselves are followers to a higher authoritarian authority (ie, the bigger bully).

This is not to say that all authority contains something pathological? There is a very significant distinction between rational and irrational authority.

“Rational authority is the recognition of authority based on critical evaluation of competences. When a student recognizes the teacher’s authority to know more than him, then this a reasonable evaluation of his competence.”
Rational authority is not based on excluding reason and critique but rather assumes it as a prerequisite.
This does not make one small and the authority great but allows authority to be superior where and as long it possesses competence. Rational authority is challenged often. The respect for this authority must be maintained.

On the other hand irrational authority is based on emotional submission to another person, follower to leader. This is not because of a belief that the leader is competent, honorable, or principled, but more likely because of a perceived strength that the follower admires. Irrational authority is never challenged by the follower, and the follower will try to silence those that do challenge the authority, because it might expose the authority (leader) to be a fraud.

“The opposite of the (irrational) authoritarian character is the mature person: a person who does not need to cling to others because they actively embrace and grasp the world, the people, and the things around them.”

Children have a need to be dependent when they are young. As children grow and develop they need to be taught the difference between rational and irrational authority. This puts a burden on the authority figures in a child's life. Children need to be taught to be independent, skeptical and open minded; to heed authority and/or to question authority when appropriate.
Children need to be taught to reason. “Reason is the activity of the mind which attempts to get through the surface to reach the core of things, to grasp what really lies behind these things, what the forces and drives are that — themselves invisible — operate and determine the manifestations.”

Sadly it's expedient to use irrational authority as a parent, a teacher, a coach, a religious leader, a boss, etc. This behavior is acceptable in our culture. Our culture in the United States accepts, if not promotes authoritarianism (bullying). Throughout history we've used our wealth and power to bully the rest of the world.

Many popular TV shows and movies honor the bullies like Dirty Harry and Jack Bauer. The rationalization is always that we only bully for goodness. The NSA/CIA is a huge bully and the fact that they are not being regulated bothers some, however, the authoritarians among us support them, blindly believing that they only bully for goodness.

Again from Eric Fromm, “But I do not want to close without emphasizing that the individual’s goal must be to become his own authority; i.e. to have a consciousness in moral issues, conviction in questions of intellect, and fidelity in emotional matters. However, the individual can only have such an inner authority if he has matured enough to understand the world with reason and love. The development of these characteristics is the basis for one’s own authority and therefore the basis for political democracy.”

I hope this explains why some people we run into won't discuss politics rationally. Most often these are Republicons, but almost all are conservatives. Liberals and progressives are more likely to be open minded and not blindly follow leaders.

Happy Thanksgiving



36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Authoritarian Personality Why do some people seem irrational in their devotion (Original Post) rhett o rick Nov 2015 OP
K&R! marym625 Nov 2015 #1
This Phenomena And Behavior Can Also Be Seen In Center And Center Right Democrats As Well cantbeserious Nov 2015 #2
and particularly in people pretending to be Democrats. nt grasswire Nov 2015 #3
Democrats is just a label. Anyone can claim to be a Democrat. I believe that my statement about rhett o rick Nov 2015 #7
Not A Challenge - Just Calling Things What They Are cantbeserious Nov 2015 #8
I didn't take is as a challenge and I agree with you. Just wanted to add my view. nm rhett o rick Nov 2015 #17
....as obvious as a wart with a hair on the end of someon'es nose. bvar22 Nov 2015 #33
Always a big fan of Fromm. TM99 Nov 2015 #4
everyone should read Bob altmeyers free book Doctor_J Nov 2015 #5
If I may... KansDem Nov 2015 #10
Thanks. my tablet doesn't cut and paste well Doctor_J Nov 2015 #18
Thank you for the reference! KansDem Nov 2015 #24
Big fan. I've lent my paper back copy out so many times, I've lost track of it. rhett o rick Nov 2015 #19
my first download when I got my kindle for christmas Doctor_J Nov 2015 #25
It explains a lot about who we are dealing with. nm rhett o rick Nov 2015 #26
Because we evolved from tribal primates, and we are still tribal primates. phantom power Nov 2015 #6
much worse than that, it's been carefully cultivated with "personality politics"--you're supposed MisterP Nov 2015 #9
Dubya and his "brain", Turd Blossom. forest444 Nov 2015 #11
Or, as Terry Pratchett put it succinctly: malthaussen Nov 2015 #12
K & R!! Duppers Nov 2015 #13
Excellent analysis. Betty Karlson Nov 2015 #14
I don't think Sen Sanders can shake the blind loyalty of followers of any rhett o rick Nov 2015 #20
Another astute observation. eom Betty Karlson Nov 2015 #23
Religion is based on this principle. Arugula Latte Nov 2015 #15
Yes there are a lot of similarities. nm rhett o rick Nov 2015 #22
I have long thought that GeoWilliam750 Mar 2016 #35
K & R SoapBox Nov 2015 #16
Good riff on an important essay. DirkGently Nov 2015 #21
I'm going to read fromm's now Doctor_J Nov 2015 #27
I have no respect for anyone who can't or won't think for themselves tularetom Nov 2015 #28
It's so obvious that they can't think on their own. Ask one to explain how their leader stands on rhett o rick Nov 2015 #30
I used to teach government, and I had an exercise: Eleanors38 Nov 2015 #29
K&R Some exist only to please power in the hopes of befriending it. raouldukelives Nov 2015 #31
Well put. They don't understand that their authoritarian leaders don't love them. nm rhett o rick Nov 2015 #32
Loyalty tends to be directly proportional to how much one gives GeoWilliam750 Mar 2016 #36
I wasn't born to follow. hobbit709 Dec 2015 #34
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
7. Democrats is just a label. Anyone can claim to be a Democrat. I believe that my statement about
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:00 PM
Nov 2015

conservatives being authoritarians covers "Center" and "Center Right" Democrats, as I believe them to be conservatives.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
33. ....as obvious as a wart with a hair on the end of someon'es nose.
Sat Nov 28, 2015, 01:39 PM
Nov 2015

Impossible to miss, even in this very small community.

Remember, that traitor Snowden had boxes in his garage.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
4. Always a big fan of Fromm.
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 12:30 PM
Nov 2015

We have generations that are forgetting this type of psychological insight and wisdom.

We have far too many who will become 'good little Germans'.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
5. everyone should read Bob altmeyers free book
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 12:36 PM
Nov 2015

The authoritarians. It explains republican mindset, and also the new democrats/turd way.

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
6. Because we evolved from tribal primates, and we are still tribal primates.
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 12:58 PM
Nov 2015

From that point of view, the miracle is that humans ever rise above this kind of behavior at all. In that way it's a lot like "rational behavior"; to whatever extent we achieve rational behavior, it's kind of like a stupid-pet-trick that we've acquired very recently. It's not as if we're actually good at it.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
9. much worse than that, it's been carefully cultivated with "personality politics"--you're supposed
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:51 PM
Nov 2015

to back a policy because a candidate supports it, and not think too much about the policy anyway, and support the candidate because they're the candidate

very demobilizing

forest444

(5,902 posts)
11. Dubya and his "brain", Turd Blossom.
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:19 PM
Nov 2015

Probably the two best-known recent examples of the pathology just described.

Thank you for that post, Rhett; it probably explains two-thirds of the world's political ills right there.

malthaussen

(17,679 posts)
12. Or, as Terry Pratchett put it succinctly:
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:26 PM
Nov 2015

"Humans were created with a design flaw: the tendency to bend at the knees."

-- Mal

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
14. Excellent analysis.
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:12 PM
Nov 2015

I hope we may enjoy a few more of such articles by your hand.

Out of curiosity: can Sanders win authoritarian personalities to join him? Or is that an impossibility?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
20. I don't think Sen Sanders can shake the blind loyalty of followers of any
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:45 PM
Nov 2015

other candidate. I think once he wins the primary the other Democrats will see him as the best alternative.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
15. Religion is based on this principle.
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:17 PM
Nov 2015

Turn off your brain, stomp down rationality, and let someone else tell you what to do, think, and believe, based on silly stories from long ago. There's an authoritarian (male, of course) magical sky dude watching you. He has a plan. Ours is not to question.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
28. I have no respect for anyone who can't or won't think for themselves
Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:15 PM
Nov 2015

You can call it authoritarian personality or whatever. I call them sheep.

They are responsible for all of the wars, massacres, pogroms, terrorism of modern times.

Nobody has to agree with me, but for god's sake, form an opinion on your own and defend it when its challenged.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
30. It's so obvious that they can't think on their own. Ask one to explain how their leader stands on
Sun Nov 22, 2015, 04:26 PM
Nov 2015

an issue. Most will call you names and ignore the question. I doubt that they even know what their leader's stand is on issues, because it isn't important to them. The relationship between the authoritarian leader and the follower is symbiotic. Neither is anything without the other. Take the followers away from a bully and they quickly show that they are truly cowards. I have also noted that if you stand up to the bully, they immediately start whining that they are the victim.

In politics, it's no use trying to reason with an authoritarian. They haven't matured to the point of being capable of reasoning.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
29. I used to teach government, and I had an exercise:
Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:23 PM
Nov 2015

Put 100 people in a bolt-locked room. Now, what number of people are required to take over?

Most started with 50+.

But then, the number began to drop, and the immortal question of the great political theorist Chubby Checker came to bear: "How low can you go?"

When the nmber dropped to single digits, students began to look less at the bawling, nut-grabbing bully-boys, and more at themselves. Authoritarians cannot operate well unless there is a concommitant acquiescence to, ignorance of, attraction to the mere trappings of power. Most folks want to work their fields, file their reports, engross themselves in a smart phone, raise their kids.

That's when the number starts dropping.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
31. K&R Some exist only to please power in the hopes of befriending it.
Mon Nov 23, 2015, 10:29 AM
Nov 2015

That, for them, is the endgame. All of the hard work, all of the money, all of the time, all of the life, invested in becoming as much like them as possible. In gratifying and fulfilling every wish in the faint hope of a knowing nod or a pat on the back signaling one is that much closer to full indoctrination.

GeoWilliam750

(2,540 posts)
36. Loyalty tends to be directly proportional to how much one gives
Mon Mar 14, 2016, 04:20 PM
Mar 2016

And inversely proportional to how much one takes.

It is easy to understand who is loyal to whom through this lens. The oligarchs are not in the least invested in our society, and mostly hold it in contempt, from what I can see.

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