old white guy

[rbnyc]

This discussion thread was locked by NYC_SKP (a host of the Populist Reform of the Democratic Party group).

[F4lconF16]

1. Not sure what you're saying here.

And I don't think I like it.

Actually, I know I don't.

Yuck.

[Dragonfli]

2. it speaks to irony. /nt

[daleanime]

19. Is that when you let an iron....

fall on your head?

[Dragonfli]

21. No that is what happens when I try to operate an iron with my fumbling hands (or a burned shirt)

i·ro·ny
ˈīrənē/

noun
the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

"“Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony"
synonyms: sarcasm, causticity, cynicism, mockery, satire, sardonicism
"that note of irony in her voice"
antonyms: sincerity

a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.
plural noun: ironies
"the irony is that I thought he could help me"
synonyms: paradox, incongruity, incongruousness
"the irony of the situation"

a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
noun: dramatic irony

[BainsBane]

24. The irony

is that people who pretend to be leftists condone shit like this. The irony is that you all think this is acceptable. It confirms my sense that a lot of the angst about the current Democratic party is in fact reactionary rather than progressive. It tells me that some here have far to much in common with the GOP.

If you all want to equate supporting Sanders with white male supremacy, you can count most of America out. Of course, counting most of the population out is exactly what this meme is meant to convey.

[Dragonfli]

26. I don't equate Sanders with white male supremacy, I equate the other two with it

That is the irony.

Sorry you don't understand what the word means. Maybe the poster was trying to push for "white male supremacy", but I didn't think so and I still don't. You should read more books, these things are not hard to understand, I have noticed such devices are lost on the young twitter minded literalists that have never been exposed to literature.

I think it's the way education works now as opposed to ancient times when I studied.
It is a shame people are offended by ironic statements, but that is the new world we live in.

[F4lconF16]

33. You equate two of the most radically different, welcome changes in american politics in years

with white supremacy?

Oh yeah. Not everyone welcomes change.

[Dragonfli]

36. They support the status quo of white male supremecy, so yeah

There are plenty of non white males that keep the supremacy going, those are two such individuals.

Sorry, looks can be deceiving, I don't support based on looks. Should I adore Palin as well?

[F4lconF16]

38. No, you're ignoring the point here.

That you refuse to recognize that they did good at all, and that that was a victory for those millions affected by them, is an insult to those people, and their life experiences. This meme does exactly that: it insults every one of those people.

[Dragonfli]

40. No, I see them Quite clearly, and all they stand for

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12774832

I do not have the luxury of wealth to see this as a team sport where we don't matter because we are poor, but it's OK because our leaders are fabulous looking supporters of the status quo and look great on the trading cards and posters.

I don't care if it were a green hermaphroditic dwarf that fought for people that were continually being impoverished and in some cases gunned down, I would support that green dwarf.

I also don't care if a candidate looks like me and has a nice smile but sells my future out to wall street, that one will not get my support.


Sorry to disappoint.

[F4lconF16]

41. You clearly don't.

Take a look at this thread again. Goodnight.

[merrily]

45. Yes, but irony based in great part on skin color, gender and age.

I am all for freedom of speech and image, but I would not have gone this way

[Dragonfli]

46. I wouldn't have gone that way either, but I do understand what is being said

Which appears to place me in the minority.

I could pretend I don't understand it, and provide the proper outrage over something unintended, but I have trouble playing dumb.

[merrily]

47. I understand the objective, but, again, I would not have gone that way.

[TM99]

4. It means quite simply

that just because someone is black or a woman, it does not mean that they stand with the people against corporate dominance of our entire politico-economic system.

And just because someone is an old white guy doesn't mean that he is a corporate tool of the oligarchs.

Then you know, there is the irony.

[rbnyc]

5. thanks

I'm deeply surprised that wasn't clear. Maybe I'm out of touch.

[Zorra]

20. Using literary devices on DU is no longer the useful way of illustrating

a point that it once was here.

You are out of touch, my dear rbnyc, and this is a very good thing for you, considering we now live in a burgeoning idiocracy.

[rbnyc]

22. Thanks, I thought I was going crazy.

You know, I already signed up to volunteer for his campaign and I contributed money. I'm not going to take it back because someone thinks Bernie would not approve of my meme. I'm in. It looks like some folks think there's no room for the likes of me, carelessly reflecting on how ironic it is, after a life of fighting for access for the disenfranchised, that the prospective first female president turns out to be the establishment candidate. And I have been honestly uncertain tonight whether I am just completely dense or whether some folks have no sense of humor. But no matter, we should probably move on because we are going to all have to work together.

[Buzz Clik]

8. +1

[BainsBane]

23. I would like to think

Sanders would tell the people who think like this to fuck off back to the nineteenth century where they came from. At least I hope so. Shit like this only hurts Sanders.

[F4lconF16]

37. From what I've seen

He's been fully supportive of all of these issues. He may not be overly vocal about him, but he is vocal about just about everything, if that makes sense. For an older, straight, white male? He's pretty good. He's got excellent voting records--better than most Dems, I think. I think he genuinely listens to people, and I can't imagine he hasn't heard the concerns of the minority communities, even if he does not live their experiences. He cares for humanity, and it's not an exclusive humanity like too many often are. I hope that as the race heats up, he doesn't focus exclusively on economic class issues as a campaign issues. Social class problems are going to need to be front and center--this needs to be a worker's movement. My concern is that he's going to very quickly fall prey to the "God bless America" patriotic nationalistic god-loving crap that's expected of the president. It's a relatively minor issue, but then again, with people actively trying to instill a patriarchal theocracy, maybe it isn't. My dream is for him to come out as an atheist (after he's the president, of course :evilgrin .

[Scuba]

3. Bingo!

[Warpy]

6. Nice reminder

FDR was an old white guy with a huge amount of inherited money and everybody thought he'd be nearly as bad as Hoover had been, making sure his class held onto all the money they'd stolen and the boat didn't get rocked too hard.

They were surprised, too.

[F4lconF16]

7. No, I went back and thought about this some more. This doesn't just feel wrong.

It very much is.

Here's why.

Both of those on the left have challenged power in a way that Bernie Sanders never has, or ever could, no disrespect to him. They have pushed back against institutions and power structures that have been in place for centuries and millennia. To do so is no easy task, no matter how privileged a background they came from. That has had real and positive effects on millions in this country.

If you think that becoming the first black president in a nation whose history is rife with racial horrors, a genocide, and an enslavement of an entire people is not standing with the people against entrenched power, think again. That was, is, and always will be a triumph of the people in this nation, and it takes courage to do so. He has fought with stunning calm against one of the worst threads of history in this country despite the intense, blatant, and direct hatred thrown his way.

If you think that her positions of power have not inspired millions of girls in this country, than you are very wrong. Clinton's accomplishments (and that they are, like her or not) have shown so many that there can be strong women. She has fought harder for women than the vast majority of men in our government, and that, to me, is more than just something. She has challenged a multi-thousand year old beast that still refuses to die, and I fully support that.

For all my criticisms of those two politicians, I refuse to ignore or diminish those things. You can argue that their policies have made these same things they fought against worse--I would not disagree. But that was a stand with the people, for the people, by the people, and it can not and should not be taken away from the people. This meme is theft of those accomplishments.

[AuntPatsy]

10. Excellent post

[daleanime]

16. +1

[nxylas]

42. You seem happy to ignore and diminish Bernie's accomplishments

Yes, the symbolic value of a black or woman president is huge, even if they are just tools of the 1%. But a lifetime of fighting for working people shouldn't be ignored just because the person doing the fighting wouldn't make history if he became president.

[F4lconF16]

43. Take a look through my posts.

You'll find I don't ignore those accomplishments. In fact, I would say he's done more in his position to help solve these tough issues, even if the number affected by his actions may be fewer. But that's not the point. That meme did not reflect the lived experiences of millions of people in something that affects them deeply and personally--not just symbollically!-- and not only did it not reflect it, it did so in a particularly insulting way.

[seabeyond]

9. ah, well now... if this one does not turn me right off, and turn my back. maybe i will step out

of sanders campaign if this is how it is going to look. maybe i do not belong.

[Cheese Sandwich]

11. Don't bail out based on one idiotic post on a web forum.

It's not like this comes from Bernie Sanders or something.

[seabeyond]

18. ty. it made me so angry, the different insults in it. i see it has nothing to do with sanders.

it is still quite insulting to many in the democratic party.

[Cheese Sandwich]

12. I don't support this kind of talk.

For one thing it's extremely divisive.

It's going to hurt people's feelings.

It's insensitive.

The racial and gender feud angle is just not a good one.

There might be a point, buried in there somewhere. But this graphic is not a good way to approach it.

[rbnyc]

14. It's not a fued

It's just straight-up irony.

[Cheese Sandwich]

15. Good luck I don't think DU can handle this kind of talk.

I agree Bernie stands for the interests of the working class, women included, people of color included as well.

But the framing of the issue in terms of the race and gender of the candidate... seems like a bad idea to me. Good luck

[rbnyc]

25. I think we shouldn't be afraid to talk about it.

The issue exists. And for some, the symbolic victory for people who have traditionally been underrepresented is so important that they are willing to give up major ground on issues that are directly relevant to the empowerment of those same groups.

Really, I've been an activist my whole life, and I think back to my younger years, marching for choice and refusing to use the pronoun "he" to indicate either gender, and I think how surprised I would have been to find that someday there would be a viable Democratic presidential contender and I would not be able to support her because she would actually be the establishment candidate.

[Cheese Sandwich]

27. A lot of people voted for George Bush because he wore cowboy boots and prayed to Jesus.

Identity means a lot in marketing.

You might even be right on the point that you're making.

Bernie stands for the oppressed. President Obama and Hillary maybe don't. They stand with Wall Street. I get that. But the way it's presented seems to be riling up some anger.

I don't know if you've seen this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6593320

[F4lconF16]

39. Then say that.

And for some, the symbolic victory for people who have traditionally been underrepresented is so important that they are willing to give up major ground on issues that are directly relevant to the empowerment of those same groups.

But you didn't. You refused to acknowledge those still huge symbolic victories--those symbolic victories, by the way, have been more than just symbolic for those minorities. They have had real effects on real people. You went for the easy meme on a very complicated issue.

[JTFrog]

13. Too idiotic and offensive to have come from Sander's campaign.

Not doing this group any favors with this baloney.

[cyberswede]

17. This is really stupid, and I really don't think Sanders would approve.

...and it's a crappy photoshop job, to boot.

[Katashi_itto]

28. I vote to leave it up.

Yes it has nothing to do with Saunders, HOWEVER:

It drives a certain narcissist on DU crazy.

So my vote is to leave it up.

[BainsBane]

30. narcissists

meaning not white men, especially the not white men who can't write four figure checks at the drop of a hat. Among those "narcissists" are also white men who care about equal rights and inclusion. It's a good way to alienate people who might otherwise support Sanders, and it's hard for me to comprehend that anyone would think it could have anything other than a negative effect on his campaign, unless the demographics being appealed to are white supremacists and MRAs.

[Katashi_itto]

31. Lol! So predictable.

It's immediately about "your Issues"

Instead of Occam's razor.

[BainsBane]

32. Yes, if you can predict one thing

It is that I will ALWAYS stand up against bigotry. That is key to being a leftist.

[Katashi_itto]

34. Lol I refer you to #31

[BainsBane]

35. "My issues"

Yes, how awful of me to concern myself with the civil rights of the majority rather than the power and ego of a privileged minority.

[F4lconF16]

44. "Your issues"

You either have no clue how patronizing and sexist that sounds, which is pathetic, or you do, in which case you need to be off this site. Which is it?

[smokey nj]

29. Please delete this post. Other members are using it

to smear Bernie and the people who support him. Bernie has an impeccable record on civil rights and social justice, he doesn't deserve that.

[NYC_SKP]

48. Locking this post on the grounds that it can be taken the wrong way, doesn't advance the cause. SRY

If other hosts want to undo the action we will have that discussion, and you are welcome, of course, to send any of us a PM.

I don't think it was posted with bad intentions, and there is no reflection on your DU record as a result of the lock the way there would be with a jury-hidden reply.

You are not blocked from the group, there are no hard feeling.

Unfortunately, your image has become an unhelpful and divisive thing and we don't need that, right?

PS, if you prefer to self-delete and we are on at the same time, I'm happy to unlock and let you self-delete.

Best regards,

NYC_SKP