A question for Bernie supporters (and others may comment as well)

[NCProgressive]

A lot of Democrats support various candidates and some eventually drop out despite best efforts. They are unable to capture the imagination of voters and it is life - we have only one opening for a nominee.

The supporters of other candidates accept the loss in 1-2 days (at the most a week) and move on -- choose another.

I was a Hillary supporter in 2008 and it was heartbreaking to see her lose by a few delegates. The math was clear and I had already built up acceptance. I didn't like Obama until about April 2008 ... but then he became my candidate in June. I accepted it as "that is how the system works." By November, I was passionate about Obama.

Why is it so hard for Bernie supporters to accept that Bernie is losing? Why the anger and entitlement? Bernie is just a slightly more progressive candidate. He is certainly not god, a prophet or a saint. Why so much pain -- enough that some of you would attack and try to kneecap the members of our own party including the eventual nominee - who have had decades of public service and are nearly as progressive?

[RandySF]

1. I think loos is more difficult for young people to accept.

[NCProgressive]

4. There were young supporters of Pete, Amy, Kamala, Beto, Cory

One never saw them whining and moaning or spewing conspiracy theories.

[nolawarlock]

30. Exactly...

I was for Kamala and then Pete before Biden. I never lost my sh#t. I know a few Warren people that were very upset at first but they never went Bernie Bro crazy.

[barbtries]

70. i'm one of those Warren people

I do feel bitter, because to my mind she was the best choice, and sexism sunk her. My opinion hasn't changed but my options sure have.

i'm not dwelling on that because there is work to be done. nothing less than saving the country actually.

[nolawarlock]

103. That's because you're an adult.

I have some friends deeply bitter about Warren's loss and I think they have a right to be, but I think all of us with good sense remember … children in cages.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

104. Yeah, I was a HUGE Elizabeth supporter too... Bernie, however, did just edge her out

as my #1 preference!!


Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[musicblind]

124. Warren was such a good choice. I can't believe she didn't get a closer look.

I want to think it wasn't sexism, but...

[Hortensis]

39. Most Sanders supporters are fine, tho. As for the angry minority

who aren't, it's just their nature. Sanders' losing only confirms hostile notions they brought with them to the Sanders camp to act on and reaffirm. When he's gone, they'll attach to someone else who promises to provide an anti-majority mob to join.

[musicblind]

125. This.

The real-life Sanders supporters I've met are sane people who will support Biden when Bernie drops out.

Twitter is not real life.

[Hekate]

97. None of the other candidates peddled conspiracy theories in the first place...

None of them ever said the system was "rigged" against them personally, or that they were at war with the "Democratic establishment." None of them presented themselves with revolutionary anger in almost-Messianic terms.

So the other candidates didn't attract those kinds of followers.

Oh, there is plenty of anger to go around. The voting system really is broken. I for one am extremely pissed about it. So far this century we've been presented with two GOP presidents who did not win the popular vote: one enabled by the SCOTUS itself after voter suppression had done its work, and one by the SCOTUS overturn of the Voting Rights Act plus foreign infiltration, sabotage, and New Jim Crow laws.

It's just that the target of my ire is not the Democratic Party per se, which has been the victim, not the perpetrator. If there really were a "Democratic establishment," instead of the hapless Jim Perez, Senator Sanders ( I, VT) would never have been allowed to run as a Democrat in the first place, much less twice. What Sanders has been railing against as being so unfair to him turns out to be just us voters, not billionaires in some smoke-filled room.

The majority of our Democratic voters and candidates fully understand who the real enemy is: the GOP and Donald J. Trump. We had a lot of good people who threw their hats in the ring -- but there can be only one.

Fingers crossed.

[NurseJackie]

31. I blame Youth Soccer for many of their social problems and inability to cope with disappointment.

The idiotic philosophies of "everyone's a winner just for trying" and "you all get a trophy, there are no losers, because we don't keep score" have been very harmful. It's created a sense of entitlement and a lack of understanding how the real world works.

[Hortensis]

43. :) And the notion that every child needs not just his

own bedroom, but his own bathroom as well.

Easy to see how having to share the choice of who will take office becomes seen as what happens to victims of the greedy rich, and actually agreeing to it is strictly for weaklings "who fall in line."

Actually, our own very over-privileged grandsons are pretty nice kids. Maybe part of it is that some people are wired to antagonism, aggression and disrespect toward others and find leaders who feed them what they insist on.

[redstatebluegirl]

86. Then there are the helicopter parents who call the University when little Johnny is failing.

They have never had to fix their own problems. It really isn't their fault, it is their parents and all of us who went along with this.

[ahoysrcsm]

128. Number one step when becoming an adult...

Calling the Doctors office for an appointment.

[redstatebluegirl]

129. I don't think some of them can even do that.

[ahoysrcsm]

130. Exactly.

[Codeine]

101. I started voting at 18.

In only one election has my first choice candidate won the primary race. Even when young I didn’t get emotional about something like that.

[Hortensis]

111. Right. You understood. Me too.

[PatSeg]

2. If Biden was losing,

I would be very sad, but I wouldn't get angry. I might be upset that the MSM didn't give him adequate coverage, which I think happened to Hillary in 2016, but I wouldn't be throwing tantrums.

[LisaM]

3. Chuck Daly, former Detroit Pistons coach, used to say, "if you're gong to lose, lose big".

It's so true. It's way easier for me to accept a loss in a sporting event if it's clear well before the end that the game is over. It's a lot harder to lost a nail biter, and it's even worse when you can hang it on the refs.

Now, I don't think by any stretch of the imagination the DNC rigged it in 2016 or 2020 (they came closer in 2008 when they didn't count the Michigan and Florida votes for Hillary), but a lot of Bernie voters honestly believe there was rigging, and the caucus results, which are skewed, probably lead them to believe the race is closer than it is.

That's my take on it.

[NCProgressive]

5. Very valid points. Thanks!

[NCProgressive]

7. That is an entirely different issue. Please stick with what I asked.

[NCProgressive]

34. Every candidate's supporters get dissatisfied .. but they support the nominee

So your children think the greens or libertarians (who will never get elected and/or do anything) and Trump (who is a wantonly incompetent criminal) will satisfy them more?

Are you saying they feel entitled? Biden has lost the prior 3 times. Sen. Edwards lost twice. May candidates are denied the nomination by the party. "If we don't get Bernie, we won't vote for a Democrat" doesn't compute with me.

[NCProgressive]

45. So ... it is not "the best person for the job from the available"

but "the person whom I like the most even though it might get Trump reelected."

[LizBeth]

9. Does it matter when looking to keep Trump in office that hurts ALL of us? Does it even matter a

little? What thinking person would allow that to stop them from stopping Trump and the Republican? Makes no sense at all.

[NCProgressive]

50. That is what bothers me about it.

Hell, we have children in cages and dying in the custody of USBP.

We have Obamacare stripped to the bone, affecting the care of millions.

We have a corrupt and criminal president looting the treasury.

The tariffs are killing the economy and many industries that depend upon foreign steel.

Essential military funds are being diverted to fund a stupid and useless wall.

We have racists and neo-Nazis running rampant.

How can one's frustration with losing the primary allow those things to happen?

[LizBeth]

53. Right.

[LanternWaste]

13. Every answer is a reponse, however not every reponse is an answer.

Every answer is a reponse, however not every reponse is an answer.

Yours was merely a reponse. And I can certainly understand why you avoided an answer.

[TwilightZone]

14. Obama's win was rarely ever in question.

They're not comparable situations.

"If people dont vote for ANY candidate (Bernie, Biden anyone) it is because that candidate has not earned that vote."

When the alternative is Trump, people have an obligation to society and an obligation to the people they *claim* to care about to ensure that Trump not be elected or re-elected.

The assertion that a candidate should have to earn one's vote in that situation is selfish and self-centered. It's a binary choice. You either get a Democrat in line with 90% of one's agenda at worst or you get Trump. Throwing a tantrum because one didn't get one's way accomplishes nothing.

[Doremus]

15. Quite a few, I've seen some estimates as high as 25%

PUMAs -- remember them?

I think OP is a bit premature in writing the epitaph.

[NCProgressive]

36. That is a deflection. Not an answer to the original question.

[William769]

52. That's all they have.

[progressoid]

55. The problem is that the question implies this is only an issue with Sanders' supporters.

In fact, it isn't. While you may have gotten over your initial dislike of Obama, a LOT of Democrats didn't. So it's a bit disingenuous to imply that this is a unique situation.

While canvassing for Warren earlier this year I met a young woman who supported Amy and adamantly declared that she would never voter for Warren...or Sanders. I hadn't asked her about Sanders, but she apparently felt obligated to add that. I said I hoped that she would support whichever Democratic candidate becomes the nominee in November. "Nope!", not if it was Warren or Sanders.

[NCProgressive]

57. It is an issue with only Sanders' supporters as far as I can discern.

Give me an example of a Pete or Amy or Kamala or Cory supporter getting into a rage and calling the election "rigged" and starting to call other candidates names and questioning their mental acuity.

Any examples?

[progressoid]

59. Now you're changing your premise to "rigging?"

Me thinks this has less to do with understanding voters and more to do with venting frustration with those voters.

[NCProgressive]

61. No .. I am sincerely looking for answers.

I gave one example of how the frustration manifests itself.

[progressoid]

76. Have you heard of Twitter?

One minute and I found two from Harris supporters. I'm sure you can find more if you really wanted to.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Hekate]

102. Make Boomers die of C-virus? That's an unbelievably vile Tweet. What is your point?

[progressoid]

113. NCProgressive asked for examples of how the frustration manifests itself.

Apparently there is a group of Kamala supporters who are pissed at Harris for supporting Biden. So I found a couple examples of Kamala supporters expressing their frustration.

[Bev54]

16. McCain was not a friggin lunatic

Trump is, so really you going to vote for a complete idiot moron because other person is not their favourite but is the most qualified? That doesn't compute

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

107. McCain was a RethugliKKKon POS... look it up!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[JudyM]

19. The only study I've seen showed that 24% of her supporters actually voted for McCain

twice the percentage of Sanders supporters who didn’t vote for her.

[NCProgressive]

37. That has been debunked repeatedly.

Also, a deflection and not an answer to the OP.

[JudyM]

72. Where has it been debunked? Source?

[NCProgressive]

79. It has been by Pew Research Center

https://web.archive.org/web/20110509200438/http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1023/exit-poll-analysis-2008

Summary: According to exit polls on Election Day, McCain won the votes of only 10% of Democrats nationwide, the same percentage of Democrats' votes that George W. Bush won in 2004.

[JudyM]

112. Seriously. Winning 10% of all Dem votes doesn't winning 10% of HRC's voters. So not disproved.

[NCProgressive]

114. If Hillary lost the primaries by 15% of the votes

how can 10% of all votes exceed 24% of Hillary's votes?

Are you saying people voted for Obama in the primary and then voted for McCain the the general?

[JudyM]

115. No, I'm pointing out that the article you pointed to as proof doesn't prove it without all the

variables separated out and accounted for. Pew didn’t prove it, and didn’t claim to prove it.

[NCProgressive]

117. One can extrapolate the data to show that what you stated is false

There never was a survey that asked "If you voted for MCain, did you support Hillary in the primaries?"

You are asking for something that doesn't exist.

[Celerity]

122. no, it is true, the the total defection rate was around 30% (5% did not vote or left POTUS blank)

Here is a breakdown on Hillary primary voters in 2008 (who actually had a higher defection rate than Bernie's in 2016)

Around 30% total of Hillary 2008 primary voters did not vote for Obama in the general

around 24 or 25% voted for McCain, around 5% did not vote

https://isps.yale.edu/research/data/d130

https://sites.duke.edu/hillygus/files/2014/06/hendersonhillygustompsonPOQ.pdf



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

Another useful comparison is to 2008, when the question was whether Clinton supporters would vote for Barack Obama or John McCain (R-Ariz.) Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election.

An analysis of a different 2008 survey by the political scientists Michael Henderson, Sunshine Hillygus and Trevor Thompson produced a similar estimate: 25 percent. (Unsurprisingly, Clinton voters who supported McCain were more likely to have negative views of African Americans, relative to those who supported Obama.)

Thus, the 6 percent or 12 percent of Sanders supporters who may have supported Trump does not look especially large in comparison with these other examples.

snip




25% is almost triple the rate of Obama to McCain primary switches, and around double

the amount of McCain to Obama switches.

Also, look at the 'other' Dem primary voters, who had a horrific fall-off, a full 53% did not vote for Obama. 44% of those voted McCain and another 9% did not vote.

The Hillary primary voters and the 'other' Democratic primary voters fall-offs or outright switches positively dwarf the Republican defectors, who only had 13% switch to Obama and 4% non voters in terms of the McCain primary supporters, and then the 'other' Republican primary voters who switched even less, 9% voting for Obama and 4% who became non voters.

That last group of Democrats (the 'other' primary voters) defected at a rated over 400% greater than the same cohort for Republicans. If we had had those levels of defections in 2016 Trump would have probably won the popular vote (only a 1.1% switch from Hillary to the orange bloat gives him that) and won the Electoral College by as much as 350-188 (which, BTW, is the absolute MAX, perfect scenario ceiling for Trump in 2020 as well). That 350 is also OUR max possible in 2020 (that is giving us a few stretches, ie. AZ, GA, sweeping the closest swing states, and losing the not so close swingers, IA, MO, and OH) unless something huge blows up on Trump (which is a possibility always with that fuck).

snip


and before some says, oh, that was Rethugs in Operation Chaos, no, not really, those were actually really not a large percentage at all

Lets do a drill down

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rush_Limbaugh_Show#Operation_Chaos

Limbaugh started this around March 20, 2008, he urged Republicans to switch parties and vote for Hillary to tie up Obama

it only works in open primary states

It blew up in his face in one of the biggest (PA)

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24481603.html



so lets give Hillary 33% of 10% of the total vote

76,156 Republican switchers

She did win late deciders, but those were mostly Democrats





Next open primaries were also big states Ohio and Texas

let's give Hillary 75% of 10% of the total votes in the combined (I doubt it was that high but lets play this really in her favour of the Chaos concept)



385,544 Republican switcher votes

and the final 2 states that were part of Operation Chaos

Indiana and North Carolina (Obama won NC, but I will be just as generous as Texas in both)



211,749 Republican switcher votes for Hillary

that's it for Operation Chaos

so the total she gained was 673,449 Republican Operation Chaos-eligible Rethug voters for Clinton

now, she overall had



18,046,007 total votes (taking the largest possible number)

so at most 3.73% percent of Republican votes from Operation Chaos went to Hillary

subtract out the 5% who didnt vote in the general

3.54%

lets say 90% of those late switch Repug voters went back to MacCain (which is higher than the rate MCain Rethug primary voters switched to Obama, which was 87%)

yields a grand total of 3.19% (and this is being REALLY generous to Operation chaos, and assumes ALL of those, every one that was a Rehug late switcher, were game playing Operation Chaos voters)

so around 22% were actual defections from Hillary to McCain (I would guess the real number was probably 23.5 to 24%) and NOT part of Operation Chaos

depending on what stats you use for Sanders defections to Trump (I have see anywhere from 5% to 12%) that is a 183% to 480% (an average of 331.5%, but my gut says it was around 220% to 230%) HIGHER rate from Hillary voters to McCain in 2008 versus Berners in 2016 who flipped to the orange bloat.


2016 Sanders supporters versus 2020 Sanders supporters


Obviously the 3rd party voters were a far smaller percentage in 2016 (it was around 8%) as 23%
of his 13,206,428 (and that number is actually around 13.75 -14 million, as it does not include popular vote totals from Iowa Caucuses (he got 85,055), Maine Caucuses, which has only district reps vote (2,226), Nevada Caucuses (9571) , North Dakota Caucuses (difficult to guess as they have delegates vote, and he had 253 in the districts), Washington (401,452 votes total for Sanders), Wyoming, or non-binding primary Nebraska primary (he got 37,744 votes)

is around 3.2 million votes. Stein only got 1,457,216 total votes (1.07%) nationwide. Also obviously, not every single one of her votes was a Bernie Dem voter. I will give number below of the percentage of Sanders 2016 primary voters who defected en toto below, but it was probably around 5% (If HALF her totals were Bernie voters) to 7% (if a full 70% of her total votes were Bernie primary voters who went Stein.) My guess based off 2012 numbers for her is that it was around 6%, and that turns out to be very close, as you wil see in the data below.

The danger when people show the total number numbers of Stein voters in the close states and say, 'Look, if you take ALL her votes and give them to Clinton, Clinton would have won easily!' is that a large chunk of her total voters would never vote for anything but the Green Party candidate, they are never Democratic or Republican voters, except for the one-off freak candidacy of Bernie in the primaries. Again, the real danger for us this time, in 2020 is that THIS group of 2020 Bernie voters are far, far less Democratic (many very hostile to us in fact) and far, far more radical than he had in 2016, so the haemorrhage is going to be far greater than in 2016 I fear.

so now lets drill down further


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

How many Sanders voters voted for Donald Trump?

Two surveys estimate that 12 percent of Sanders voters voted for Trump. A third survey suggests it was 6 percent.

First, the political scientist Brian Schaffner analyzed the Cooperative Congressional Election Study, which was conducted by YouGov and interviewed 64,600 Americans in October-November 2016. In that survey, Schaffner found that 12 percent of people who voted in the primary and reported voting for Sanders also voted in November and reported voting for Trump.

Schaffner examined only voters whose turnout in the primary and general election could be validated using voter file data. This excludes people who said they voted but actually did not — although it also excludes people who voted in caucuses or party-run primaries, for which validated turnout data are not as readily available.

Second, the same 12 percent figure emerges in the 2016 VOTER Survey, which was also conducted by YouGov and overseen by the Democracy Fund Voter Study Group (of which I am research director). In 2016, this survey interviewed 8,000 respondents in July, when they were asked their primary vote preference, and then in December, when they were asked their general election preference. This has the advantage of measuring primary preference closer to the primaries themselves and then tracking people over time. But their turnout in both elections has not been validated as of yet.

The third survey is the RAND Presidential Election Panel Survey, which interviewed the same group of about 3,000 Americans six times during the campaign. Again, this survey has the advantage of tracking voters over time, but nobody’s turnout has been validated. Among voters who reported supporting Sanders as of March 2016, 6 percent then reported voting for Trump in November.

snip

I think the numbers of Bernie to Trump voters was probably around 10% overall (although I will show the numbers with 12% too). That 10% number is given here That link has a lot more data and goes into great depth, but at 10% Trump from Bernie defection rates, that would have swung the election to Hillary EXCEPT for one massive thing. The problem with saying those Berner to Trump voters made the diifrent completely ignores the Republican to Democratic switchers, as well. You cannot just pull out one set of switchers. Trump lost some support, too, of course. 34% of Kasich primary voters voted for Clinton. And 11% of Rubio primary voters did the same. Kasich had 4,290,448 votes, so 34% of that yields 1,458,752 Rethugs switching to Clinton, OR MORE than ALL of Bernie to Trump votes. Cruz had 7,822,100 Votes, so 11% of that yields 860,431 Rethug switches to Hillary. That is more votes than Bernie to Stein votes, or damn close. Next up is Rubio voters, who defected at a rate of 10%. Rubio had 3,515,576 votes, so that yields 351,558 Rehug to Hillary defections.

Add up those 3 numbers you get 2,670,741 Republican primary to Hillary general defection votes. That is just from THREE of losers, there were many other losing Repug smaller candidates who also had switchers to Clinton. The total was probably around 3 million Republican to Hillary switches.

If you take the 16% of Bernies 14 million primary votes (10% to Trump, 6% to Stein) that yields 2,240,000 Bernie to Trump defections, or far less than went the other way (Rethug to Clinton). In fact, lets say EVERY single Stein voter was a Bernie defector (Literally impossible in reality but lets do it just for fun). That yields 2,857,216 or so, which is still less than the total Rethug to Clinton total switches (counting all Repug primary voters).

I will now deal with last 2 categories. Non voters in the general and then the Gary Johnson general voters.

As for Sanders primary voters who didn't vote at all, it was only 3.5%. Hillary in 2008 had 5% of her primary voters not vote in the General. 5% of Republican primary voters didnt vote in the general.

A total of 8% went 3rd party from Bernie, so taking out Steins 6% (which I used in the calculation above) that leaves 2% who went to Johnson. That yields 280,000 votes. So the grand total of Bernie to other parties voters is 2,520,000 if you take the 10% to Trump number, or 2,800,000 if you give Trump a 12% Defection rate from Sanders primary. Still less than just Rethug primary voters who switched to Hillary. That is not even counting at all the Trump or any other candidates in the Rethug primary to Stein and especially Trump to Johnson switchers. Nor does it count the Rethug to Evan McMullin 732,273 votes (almost none came from Hillary or Bernie). Johnson took in a massive 4,489,233 votes. If only a third of the rate (so 4%, although I think it was higher, as he had 3 MILLION more votes than in 2012) defected from the Rethugs than did Bernie to Trump voters, that means Trump lost another 1,247,354 votes as there where 31,183,841 total votes cast in the Republican primaries.

That means over 5 MILLION defections from Trump to Hillary and 3rd parties, versus around 2.5m to 2.8 million defections away from Hillary via Bernie primary voters. Large net plus for Sec Clinton

The overall rate for Bernie primary voters who didnt vote for Sec Clinton and who voted for either Trump, Stein etc or didn't vote at all was 21.5% to 23.5% (depending if you give Trump 10 or 12% of their vote) versus a 30% defection/non vote rate from Obama for Hillary primary voters in 2008.




2020

5 Weird Items In The New Bernie-Buttigieg Poll (April 17)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeldurkheimer/2019/04/17/5-weird-items-in-the-new-bernie-buttigieg-poll/#7945897b7ddd

snip

No. 4: Only 42% of those who voted for Bernie in the 2016 Primary selected him as their top choice in the 2020 Primary.

Many assume that Bernie’s supporters from 2016 are a deeply loyal group, but it would appear that with more alternatives in 2020 (beyond Hillary Clinton) former Bernie voters have new top choices. For example, of Bernie’s 2016 supporters, 15.7% now selected Beto O’Rourke as their top choice, 11.7 % selected Joe Biden, 7.9% selected Pete Buttigieg and 6% selected Kamala Harris.

No. 3: 26% of current Bernie Sanders supporters said that they would rather vote for President Donald Trump over Senator Elizabeth Warren, if that were the eventual 2020 matchup.

While many have assumed that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren appeal to a similar progressive voter, many apparent Bernie supporters would seem to disagree. More than one-in-four of them say they would rather vote for Donald Trump’s second term instead of voting for Elizabeth Warren. In the overall head-to-head between Warren and Trump, voters suggest that they would prefer Trump 52% to Warren 48%.

No. 2: While 100% of Buttigieg’s supporters said they would support Bernie against Trump (if that were the General Election matchup), only 79% of Bernie’s supporters said they would vote for Buttigieg over Trump in a General Election.

This is just another example of the trend where Bernie's supporters appear to be incredibly loyal to just Bernie. Here, 21% of Bernie's supporters say that they would rather vote for President Trump than Pete Buttigieg, if given the binary choice. Perhaps many Bernie supporters would legitimately prefer Trump over most other Democrats. Perhaps Trump and Bernie have a similar, singular appeal to a certain subset of voters. While most Democratic primary voters would support Bernie in the general election if he were the nominee, it appears that some significant subset of Bernie’s supporters do not intend to reciprocate.

No. 1: Only 51% of current Bernie supporters actually voted in the 2016 General Election for the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton – 7% voted for Trump, 23% voted for a third-party candidate, and 19% did not vote.

This result is the most difficult to interpret. Because nearly 30% of those who currently support Bernie say they voted for Trump or a third-party candidate in 2016, this statistic could support the claim that Bernie has crossover appeal and can expand on what Hillary was able to do in 2016. If 19% of non-voters now say that they would go to the polls for Bernie, it would support the narrative that Bernie can motivate many more people to go out and vote for a Democrat in 2020. If we take these potential voters at their word, it would appear to be a good sign for Bernie.

On the other hand, can we know for sure that such voters will actually pull the lever for Bernie in 2020, given that they were the same voters who, in 2016, were convinced to switch their vote to Trump or a third-party candidate, or convinced to not vote at all? Through the slog of negative advertising and attacks that will take place over the next 18 months in the run up to the Presidential Election, perhaps many of the current Bernie supporters will not actually remain motivated Bernie supporters until the end. Only time will tell.

snip


Hope all this helped!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

109. BIIIIIINNGGOOOO!! It was the year of the PUMA!! Bernie supporters are loyal Democrats!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[TexasTowelie]

40. "Votes are not owed, they are earned."

I agree, but a few weeks ago another member here was pressuring me to take a loyalty oath to support Bernie when he was supposed to win the nomination (even though less than 3% of the delegates were determined). My response was that I was going to vote for a Democrat in November. A few more exchanges occurred between us until we completed the circle and I again replied to refer back to my previous post where I said that I was going to vote for a Democrat in November.

I believe that it is far more important to be loyal to my country than it is to be loyal to an individual, a political party, or the rules of a Website. While I would be apprehensive voting for Bernie, in the end I expect that when it came time to vote in the general election he would get my vote since the alternative would be disloyal to my country.

[blm]

51. Not as many as propaganda claims. If 25% of HRC voters went to McCain

then McCain would have won.

Geez that horseshyt is being spread all over by professional propagandists and the lazy minded who spread it even further.

[renate]

8. I can understand it

To come soclose to getting a candidate who believes in health care for all, free college tuition, a basic social safety net that is such a big part of the quality of life in Northern European countries, and to think, and be practically guaranteed by polls and the media, that this time you are actually going to get that candidate, only to have the rug yanked out from under you overnight.... I totally understand the frustration. Totally.

I don't happen to share that frustration because I strongly believe that 1) Bernie Sanders would never ever have actually been elected, 2) his candidacy would have led to huge downticket losses, and 3) even if he were elected he would be hamstrung by the GOP Senate and possibly a newly GOP House. I would be delighted, if we lived in Nonexistent Dream World, by a President Bernie Sanders and a Democratic House and Senate. It's sad but almost certainly true that that simply could not happen in real life.

But I absolutely understand the frustration and anger, especially in people who are young and idealistic and who think that the president has all kinds of powers that he actually does not have. I share it. I find it really frustrating that of all the superb female and POC candidates we had, here we are again with a bunch of old white guys fighting it out. But I'm not idealistic any more, so I'm resigned to how it's all worked out.

[redstatebluegirl]

28. They are young, but some of the older ones really believe all of this is "free" it is not.

Someone pays for it, even in the countries they love, taxes are through the roof. I can go for that if I get my health care and tuition free but that won't happen. Capitalism is so ingrained here, it would go kicking and screaming.

What is the most annoying is the thought that any of us who are not quite as left as others are somehow DINOS, been called that often by some Sanders supporters.

[TwilightZone]

10. It's the difference between a movement and a campaign.

At the heart of it all, in my opinion, is that Sanders has been elevated from "presidential candidate" to the leader of an entire movement that is firmly centered around Sanders. As such, there's probably more of a personal emotional attachment to him for many. To many, he *is* the movement.

Also, by frequently distancing himself from the party, he's created a false sense that only he can solve everyone's problems and only he addresses issues. Those who believe this also tend to believe that should he fail, no one else will address the issues. In reality, many of the candidates this cycle, including Biden, and many, many Democrats have been addressing and fighting for similar issues for decades.

Again, when the candidate fails, there's further to fall because some believe he's the only answer to everything. For the rest of us, we understand that all of our candidates support many of the same things and have similar goals, so when our preferred candidate drops out, we know that the remaining candidates are still mostly in line with our beliefs, especially when compared to the binary choice in November, Donald Trump.

That's not saying that the supporters of other candidates don't go through similar stages or have similar reactions. It just seems to be more, shall we say, intense among supporters of Senator Sanders.

[Thekaspervote]

80. Well stated.. thank you!

[philly_bob]

11. An honest explanation

1) There is a sense that DNC (& DU) resisted Sanders in 2008 and now they're doing it again.

2) Sanders stands for basic change in economy, and Biden stands for just tinkering with it.

3) And personally, there's also the numerous generalized aspersions against "Bernie Bros" on DU -- my favorite was "vile scumbuckets" -- in snowflake-style Biden-supporter complaints about impolite Bernie supporters.

I don't want to argue. Just explaining. I'll vote for whoever convention picks. But I'm afraid Biden will lose just like Hillary did.

[TwilightZone]

17. Sanders didn't run in 2008.

As for #3, blame the people who perpetuate the stereotypes: some Sanders supporters and the self-described "dirtbag left"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/9/21168312/bernie-bros-bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house-dirtbag-left

[philly_bob]

33. You're right, of course, TZ. It was 2016. /nt

[Doremus]

21. Agree.

Just as we've been doing for decades, progressives will hold their noses and vote for the centrist. Heaven forbid the tables should ever turn, we'd never hear the end of the whining and crying.

PS my favorite was "dirtbag left."

[Turin_C3PO]

23. I think the term

“Dirtbag left” was a word they used to describe themselves.

[TwilightZone]

27. Dirtbag left is what they call themselves.

The term was coined by podcast Chapo Trap House to describe themselves and other Sanders supporters.

The podcast has a close association with the Sanders campaign, so if you're looking for someone to blame for the term, you're looking in the wrong place.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/9/21168312/bernie-bros-bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house-dirtbag-left

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

106. THIS x 1,000,000!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[aikoaiko]

12. I think the angriest are independents who finally see themselves in Bernie and Bernie had a chance.

And then their hopes are dashed. They already feel disenfranchised and losing Bernie is losing hope of a seat at the table.

If one is a Democrat who is a Bernie supporter, then the transition is easier to an HRC or a Biden type of Democrat.

Although I can't say I will feel passionate about Biden, but I will vote for them and be happy when Trump is gone.

[TwilightZone]

29. Independents are split or favoring Biden in polls.

They also think Biden has a better chance of beating Trump than Sanders does.

For example, Morning Consult shows Sanders with a 1% lead among men and Biden with a 11% lead among women.

https://morningconsult.com/2020/03/06/democratic-primary-polling-joe-biden-bernie-sanders/

Other polls show them about even.

https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us03092020_untz23.pdf

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/docs/2020/Ipsos_Dem_Primary_March_6-9_2020.pdf

[aikoaiko]

38. yes, not all independents are for Bernie. I didn't think I needed to say that.

But it is true.

[lambchopp59]

18. Patience, Luke...

There's a lot of pent-up frustration with governmental systems that only do lip service to the plight of starving students. I felt exactly as they do, often sleeping in my car to get through college, using the gym showers, working around the clock to finally earn the degree that allowed me to climb atop the vicious debt and poverty cycle. Meantime Ronnie Ray Gun's "It's been said I favor the rich, I don't deny it", followed by GW Shrub's Antoinette-esque "thousand points of light", and it seemed that finally paying off my student debt under the ministrations of the relief from economic recovery under Bill Clinton seemed so incremental. It took well over a decade for me to recover into the black, and only temporarily so as I lost my home and employment under the ineptitude of King George the Idiotic, and found myself losing all my retirement savings, selling a classic car and eating hot dogs until the tech market rebounded under Obama.
Kamala Harris' endorsement of Joe Biden solidified my choice for me. I'm still a bit frustrated that full-fledged socialist educational attainment still remains out of reach for millions of young folks, who are furiously working to climb atop such a stacked deck. Had it not been for California's 50 dollar a month tuition at community colleges, I'd likely still be driving ambulances for a pittance wage at 60 years old.
Frustration with only incremental relief from the "Let them eat cake" attitudes can produce tremendous amounts of hangry reactions from millions who are struggling and working hard just to make ends meet.
"You may say I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one".

[Turin_C3PO]

22. There actually

was a movement in 2008 by frustrated Clinton supporters called PUMA (party unity my ass). A fraction of them voted McCain over Obama.

As for Sanders supporters, I think it’s because many are young and don’t have as much experience in dealing with election loss. It’s just harder to take for them, IMO.

[el_bryanto]

24. That's not too complicated

I know why I do; I believe that Biden will not hold Wall Street accountable, and will not push for some form of universal health care, both things we desperately need. I believe that Sanders has a better chance of doing that so I am going to continue to support him until he drops his campaign.

I will support Biden in the General Election, should he receive the nomination, but I don't see any reason to change my position now, even if it makes some DU participants upset.

It'd be interesting to do a statistical analysis on this platform of posts criticizing Biden and his supporters vs posts criticizing Sanders and his supporters.

Bryant

[JT45242]

25. A different kind of denial -- plus the lies have continued for 4 year

Part of it is Bernie himself. He screamed and screamed that he was "screwed" by superdelagates, The reality was that Hillary beat him by about 3.7 million votes. That is more than she beat Trump in the general election.

I just had a Bernie supporter say that he got more votes than Hillary last time. I pulled up the data from last primary season and she said it wasn't right -- Bernie won more votes.

He has screamed the lies for years. He got nearly everything in the Democratic platform (even with that (I-Vt) next to his name the whole time. The Democratic party had a progressive platform. But he still screams that he got screwed and yells about mainstream Dems. Big lies, over and over... sounds like another demagogue and his followers.

Add to that the bots playing to those sentiments on the internet and the echo chambers and we get what we have.

[Ron Green]

32. Bernie is unique in that

he calls out the people at the top of a rigged system. Other Democratic candidates are pretty much the same in their middle-of-the road approach to policy, and their supporters can more easily find a substitute, policy-wise.

The claim that “young people can’t handle loss” is not the reason, in my view. Every Democrat I know personally in my town is a Bernie supporter, and they’re all older people.

“Free stuff” is another canard that’s used throughout a craven and bought media, among low-information voters and Republicans, and even here at DU by those in the echo chamber. Thoughtful voters know that Bernie is not promising anything more than a voice, an exhortation from the White House to do some of the things we’ve been needing to do for a long time.

[NCProgressive]

41. There is no rigged system.

Bernie creates these strawmen and some people fall hook line and sinker for that.

Furthermore, hypothetically, if the system is rigged, A) The Democrats did not create it and B) Even if elected Bernie won't be able to do anything about it.

[Ron Green]

48. LOL.

Obama put Geithner and Summers on his team and you still don’t see it. I’m not sure why you asked a question in your OP, and then reject the actual basis for the answers.

[NCProgressive]

49. How did Geithner and Summers, both progressive Democrats rig the system?

Pray tell. Just because they were on Wall Street doesn't mean they "rigged" the system.

[Ron Green]

54. They didn't rig it, neither did Obama. They're all just part of it.

The problem is that only Bernie, among all our available candidates, acknowledges that it’s rigged. And there’s the answer to your question, if you’ll ease up on your defensiveness. People who support Sanders know that Biden, or Pete, or Amy would work from the same assumptions as Obama or Geithner or Summers. Liz Warren would have held out some hope, but only Bernie is the real thing - and there’s the source of frustration at his being shut down.

[NCProgressive]

56. Give me some evidence of a "rigged" system

Otherwise it is just hyperbole to drive up the anger in people.

[Turin_C3PO]

58. When the 1%

owns and hoards so much of the country’s wealth, we clearly have a problem. Whether you want to use the word “rigged” or not, something’s definitely wrong.

[NCProgressive]

60. "Wealth" is not all ecashable.

If tomorrow, person X invented a reusable and clean substitute for oil and started a company, that person will be instantly worth $10 billion which will be counted as "wealth" -- but that is just paper and worth not a whole lot if sold at once.

In any country, even in quasi-communist countries like Russia, the top 1% control most of the wealth. It is not an anomaly. It is the way statistics are kept.

One of my friends whose shares in a startup were valued at $120 million had to borrow money from me for rent. He couldn't sell them because the company was privately held and even if it went public, he couldn't sell all but a tiny fraction because of Section 144 rules and shareholder agreements.

He would be counted by statisticians as being worth $120 million but was barely making ends meet.

Next example.

[Turin_C3PO]

63. I get all that

but still, the fact is that wealth is concentrated far too much at the top and has been since the 80s. I understand that obviously the top echelon of earners will own most of the country’s wealth. But it’s far too unequal and must be redistributed (not in a communist way but in ways advocated by Democrats).

[NCProgressive]

65. In any dynamic and innovative economy

"wealth" (most of which in the form of stocks) moves upwards to a few innovators.
Since the 80's, a lot of new technology came into being - personal computers, internet, internet routing devices, winchester hard drives, Windows, Apple, internet e-commerce companies, then social networks and B2B enterprises, smartphones, tablets etc. which created a LOT of wealth for the innovators who launched those products.

There was never anything nefarious about any of it. Several hundred billion dollars in value was created and it went mostly to all the innovators but also to hundreds of thousands of employees of those companies.

What is rigged about it?

In the past, Edison, Bell, Carnegie, JP Morgan, Ford, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Crocker (to name a few) also innovated and accumulated a lot more wealth as a percentage. The trust-buster Teddy Roosevelt had to keep them honest but many of them also lost a lot of it in the crash of 1929.

[Turin_C3PO]

68. Ways to redistribute wealth include

higher progressive tax rates with much few loopholes, higher capital gains tax after a certain number, possibly a wealth tax, a transaction tax on Wall Street, etc. All of this would put more money in the treasury that could go to programs that actually help the vast majority of people.

[NCProgressive]

71. All our candidates are for what you stated - not just Bernie

except the "wealth tax" which will fail in courts for various reasons and the "transaction tax" which will affect people's 401-Ks negatively.

Over 75% of 401-Ks are in mutual funds and it is the mutual funds that trade stock in volume and do it dozens of times a day. When the tax hits, it will be added to the administrative costs of the mutual funds and lower the yields for the average American.

Rich people don't trade stocks that much so it will have no effect on them.

I am all for higher progressive tax rates with few loopholes and a higher capital gains tax. No issue there.

[Turin_C3PO]

73. I agree that our candidates

are for all this, that’s why I’m a Democrat and not a Republican. Bernie certainly doesn’t have a monopoly on progressive thinking.

[Ron Green]

64. OK, SO EVERYONE IS NOT AS SMART AS YOU.

Many people struggle (not you), and they have come to believe (unlike you) that the US economy has come to the point where it works against them (not you.)

Therefore, their disappointment at the way Bernie’s campaign has deflated has something to do with their belief that what he has said - defunding the Oligarchy, making an economy that works for more people, establishing worker-directed enterprises - is something that’s not going to be mentioned by other Democratic candidates. They foolishly believe that Bernie represents a chance to really change some things. They’re NOT SMART LIKE YOU, okay?

No need to respond. You’re right, alright?

[NCProgressive]

66. This is not about being right or wrong

Please read Post #65

[Ron Green]

77. So have you answered your question yet?

[Thekaspervote]

87. "Only Bernie".... no he isn't the only one. He lead you to believe it, but it is not so.

Sanders has been around DC long enough to know he wouldn’t be able to pass any of his “free” legislation stuff he’s been promising you. Why are you not angry with someone who’s been deceiving you?

There are LOTS of DUer’s that were sanders supporters in 16, but then saw all the half truths and are just done with him. If you look at the stats from those that have already voted it’s pretty clear Americans are speaking, and it isn’t in favor of sanders.

[Ron Green]

94. I'm not hearing him promising free stuff.

I’m hearing him telling more of the truth about a bought system and an immoral economy than any of the others are telling. To characterize this as “promising free stuff” shows either ignorance or obfuscation.

“Getting stuff done” is the phrase used by many of those supporting Biden. I suggest, looking at Joe’s record, that this is no closer to the mark than what Bernie’s accused of.

[George II]

62. If you've got a large, intricate and involved organization you don't appoint a concert pianist....

....to run it.

Both of those men are very experienced in the financial organization of the United States. It's disingenuous for you to imply that they're corrupt.

[Ron Green]

74. They're not corrupt. They just do what they do.

This is late-stage Capitalism, and they’re the highly skilled minions who work the levers. There’s no morality here (that’s a problem, but maybe a topic for another thread), just work to do for them and others on Wall Street. Obama really had to pick them; as the new first Black president, he could not have been angry, right? He was cool and collected, as he had to be. These guys were ready to preside over the bloodbath.

[NYMinute]

42. Actually, you know and I know that there is no "free" stuff

The young people were given a false hope of escaping tuition and debt which could not materialize because it would have come out of the pockets of other people who are also struggling with life.

As much as Bernie creates a myth of millionaires and billionaires, the fact of the matter is that all that money is paper money which can't be realized. Bezos is worth some $121 billion but most of it is in stock which he cannot sell without dropping the value drastically.

Where will the "cash" come from?

[mcar]

35. You raise very good points

I, too, was an HRC supporter in '08, but happily moved to Obama. This round, I was all in for Kamala, then leaned Amy, now Joe.

Bernie isn't getting enough votes. Period. One can argue the pros/cons of the primary system, but anything else is just sour grapes.

[TCJ70]

46. To me, settling for Biden represents...

...a little more than just having a slightly less progressive candidate. For context, I only support Sanders now because Warren dropped out. The only other person who has been on my posts has been Warren until last week.

- I don't think Biden will push as hard for his policy agendas as the current times call for. If he does, it will be for policies that don't move as far as I'd like.

- He publicly seems to think Republicans will magically turn from the last decade of their behavior and work with him. Like he didn't observe what was happening while he was next to Obama for eight years.

Historically I will back the candidate in a primary that will push the furthest, that's why Sanders is my candidate now. I'm just tired of the mediocrity that seems to be pushed on us recently. I know someone will say "But Biden will be the most progressive President EVER!!!" but we don't know that. Obama ran on some pretty forward thinking ideas and governed relatively moderately once in office. Please don't take that as a criticism, I really don't have many issues with Obama.

Anger? Yeah, that we won't have a strong advocate for readjusting the out of whack Overton window we have in this country.
Entitlement? That's not the right word. It's unnecessary in your post and is slightly insulting. Especially when using the broad brush you seem to be in your last paragraph.

[NCProgressive]

47. I am not asking why you're supporting Bernie -- your answers are fine.

I am asking why is it so hard to accept that Bernie just simply didn't get enough votes?

Why is there anger and conspiracy theories among many Sanders supporters (you may not be one of them) and they are not able to handle the loss like an adult and move forward?

[mcar]

69. Yet you seem to think your candidate will magically

turn the Republicans into progressives, courtesy of his "revolution." Else, there's no way he'd get his initiatives passed, right?

[TCJ70]

98. I neither said, nor believe, any such thing...

...thanks for the mischaracterization, though. Without a super majority in the senate, there’s no denying that M4A, or any other proposal of Warrens or Sanders is a serious challenge against today’s Republicans. It’s the same level of challenge that Bidens public option will face in my opinion. That being the case, why settle for the public option? Go for the gold, Dems!

[dawn5651]

67. i lay some at bernies door his rhetoric about who is rival is..look at how he spoke about

warren...totally unreal and now he is turning that on biden. bernie is a sore loser and you would think he would encourage supporters to support the eventual nominee but he won't do that.

[rickyhall]

75. The trouble accepting staying in the same old rut.

So do I, but I'm not violent about it.

[NCProgressive]

81. You're answering why you're supporting Bernie. I get that.

What I am asking is why is it so much difficult for Bernie supporters to make a transition to the nominee when other candidates' supporters do it effortlessly. They also think their candidate is unique and better for them and their country and will effect positive changes.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

108. Gee, I don't be know... maybe because the primary race is still on?!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[ehrnst]

118. .......

Joe/Kamala or Biden/Harris 2020!!
Jump on the Biden Bandwagon & abandon the revolution!!

[pampango]

82. I don't have a hard time accepting that Bernie is losing. 10 days ago he wasn't

and Biden was up against his ‘firewall’ in SC. There were hyper Bernie supporters who contended that Biden should drop out after his poor showing in the first 4 contests.

That was ridiculous. Expecting Bernie to drop out 10 days after he was ‘leading’ is a bit presumptuous as well.

If Biden does well and Bernie poorly today and the 17th, I think it will be time for Bernie to end his campaign. More than half of the states will still not have voted but the math will be undeniable. I don’t think that March 18 would represent dragging the primary out too long.

[NCProgressive]

83. Thank you for a reasonable and rational response.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

110. Right again!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[mysteryowl]

84. I would say this goes for Biden supporters as well.

I have seen such rudeness and aggressive snide remarks from Biden supports, on DU, that I think many progressives may have left the platform.

Remember, social media, and plants in rallies, are tactics from sources other than Sanders supporters.
We have been warned by the intelligence agencies about the ACTIVE interference in our elections. Please take heed and don't believe all the awfulness you come across.

[mountain grammy]

89. This is the truth.

I would give an honest answer to this post about Democrats accepting and even promoting moderate republican policies instead of our core values over the last 3 decades, but what’s the use? For all intents and purposes I’ve left this platform.

[mysteryowl]

119. True. I have the same views as you.

With Biden the party is moving further into conservative.

[mrs_p]

121. I discovered this today

Wondered if I was in the right place.

[jalan48]

85. I think we're seeing a serious schism in our Party. It's possible we may see the Party fracture

like the Whig Party did in the middle of the 19th Century. At some point blaming Sanders (and his millions of followers) for problems within the Democratic Party becomes meaningless.

[Turin_C3PO]

88. That would be

a sure fire way to keep conservatives and the Republican Party in power for decades. I think most Bernie voters are smarter than that.

[jalan48]

92. Yes it would be a big problem.

[marlakay]

116. I think most are tired of always having

To give into the moderate way of thinking.

Especially the young, I am a progressive but I am older and wiser, the kids only see a very tough future ahead and want to vote in radical change to fix it.

[Turin_C3PO]

120. Then the young people need to get out and vote.

I don’t disagree with you that we need radical change, especially regarding climate change and healthcare. The youth will pull the party left but they have to show up!! So far, they’re not even turning out to vote for Sanders.

[marlakay]

123. I agree but I was talking about

His supporters that did go out and vote.

[NCProgressive]

93. There is a saying called "cutting one's nose to spite the face"

Time for a more progressive candidate will come. Someone who can lay out the platform with solid numbers backing up the policies and working "with" the party rather than against it.

(Bernie could have done it as well. On day 1, he could have declared "I'm from now until the end, a Democrat" wuld have gone a long way.)

[jalan48]

96. I wish everyone could agree on the radical changes that are needed to meet the problems we are

facing as a nation. It doesn't appear to me that is the case. If Bernie angers you I think you are going to find the growing number of climate change activists even more infuriating.

[CentralMass]

90. I was also a Hillary supporter in 2008. If you give that campaign

an honest look it was a pretty nasty battle. Regarding the stubbornness of Sanders supporters. There is a group YouGov that did studies of the 2008 primary and the 2016 primary. They determined that in 2008 24% of Hillary voters voted for McCain in the general. YouGov found that 12% of Sanders voters voted for tRump in 2016.
So I would say that your assertion that Sanders supporters are more stubborn than lets say Hillary supporters is not accurate. I think thst the PUMA's never forgot. I could be wrong but I think that they make up the core of Sanders haters.

[NCProgressive]

95. That has been debunked already

According to exit polls on Election Day, McCain won the votes of only 10% of Democrats nationwide, the same percentage of Democrats' votes that George W. Bush won in 2004.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110509200438/http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1023/exit-poll-analysis-2008

[CentralMass]

99. There ard other studies that support it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/105691/mccain-vs-obama-28-clinton-backers-mccain.aspx

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

105. I think you're right about that...Bernie's supporters are some of the most loyal Democrats there are

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[BlueWeirdo]

91. In two words "Existential Dread"

Colorado Public Radio had a really good story on teens and existential dread. It came down to three things:
Being killed in a mass shooting
Climate Change
Fear about having a secure future

and how those in power have done nothing to help.

The Bernie supporters I know are youngish folks who experience these fears directly or are closely related to those that do. Bernie gives them hope that something meaningful can change happen. Otherwise they see no way out of a terrible situation they had no hand in creating.

I can see how they see a Biden win as at best a zero gain proposition because they believe small gains won't move the needle. I think their anger is justified even if I don't agree with their choice of candidate.

Having said that, the Sanders folks I know will #votebluenomatterwho

[The Mouth]

100. It's hard for those who see

every other candidate as merely a continuation of what has gone before.

Not everyone has halcyon views of the Obama and Clinton presidencies as unmitigated good. Not everyone did well between 2008 and 2016, not everyone thinks 'more of President Obama's third term' would be a good thing.

I'm not really one of them, but I understand the *HATRED* of anyone who basically doesn't want to start hanging bank officers, loan collectors and healthcare administrators who provide no service except to write excuses for why one isn't covered.

Bernie is a very mild, very middle of the road, rather conservative person compared to what a lot of younger Americans want; they want the people who've been ripping them off for student loans, closing the factories and running the show hanging from lamp posts or getting a necklace, but we don't really have a liberal, to say nothing of a radical leftist party, so Bernie is 'it' in the sense of really being the *only* 'suit' running who isn't just another cog.

That's my take on the stridency; I'm an old geezer and I know how Russia played out in 1917, but if I had 50K in debt, no chance of a decent job, and no healthcare, a bit of blood in the streets and a few one percenters having a 'Goodyear' wouldn't be the worst thing imaginable.

If we had a parliamentary system with genuine parties, ranging from far right to far left, this 'big tent' concept would be shown for what it is regarding both Democrats and Republicans - sham that exists only because we have two parties, each one like a family that comes together on the holidays, but actually has many folks who genuinely hate each other, even if they can seldom say so.

[Liberty Belle]

126. My healthcare premium is double my mortgage. I could lose my house without drastic action

on healthcare so for me this is personal. Bernie is for Medicare for all; Biden threatened to veto healthcare for all.

Biden voted for the Iraq War that's cost a fortune and nobody ever asked how much the war would cost.

Sanders voted no on the war and thinks healthcare for all must be our priority.

For me, Biden will not do enough; mere tweaks to Obamacare won't help at all. I am over the amount for subsidies, 62, and our premiums are $2,000 a month for the two of us.

We cannot afford even one more year of this, let alone four, simply put.

I have never had so much personally at stake in a presidential race before.

I like Bernie's policies best, but voted for Warren thinking she'd be the most electable candidate who would actually get the most done on healthcare. After she dropped out I'm back to hoping against hope that Bernie can beat the odds.

I think a lot of people in America are in desperate straits and DO want a revolution of sorts, not just evolution/baby steps toward reforms we desperately need.

I am old enough to remember an era of no premiums at all for healthcare. Later hubby got his free, and mine was maybe a hundred bucks a month through his work. At times it was free for both of us before I got out of the regular job market and started my own freelance business. Then companies started jacking it into the stratosphere. Now even insurance through hubby's work is $2,000 a month for us both. Obamcare would be as high or higher, since we are just over the limit for any subsidies. But we live in an area where the cost of living is high -- the highest gas prices and utility prices in the nation, and I have medical needs excluded from our crummy policy so I still have to pay 100% out of pocket for chiropractic care and massage for pain from an old car accident.

Often I can't afford those, so I do without and am pain. This is a 100% broken healthcare system for those in the middle class who are not quite old enough for Medicare, but getting price-gouged by greedy insurance companies. Biden doesn't get it, and Turmp doesn't care at all.

[showblue22]

127. Bernie would not have helped you.

His rigged approach and refusal to compromise or better.. not knowing how to compromise means his plan would never make it out of committee. It's was never a real plan, just not real.


Biden never said he would veto medicare for all. That is a distortion and manipulation of what he said. It was hypothetical. The truth is, a medicare for all plan would never even make it to his desk.

[Gothmog]

131. sanders staying will only hurt him

sanders not dropping out may help Biden. sanders keeps on losing primaries by large margins nnly strenghten's Joe's position https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/11/no-surprise-bernie-sanders-is-still-all-about-himself-never-party/

Sanders’s remaining in the race should serve several salutary purposes for the party and the country. First, seeing him lose overwhelmingly week after week will dispel the notion that the Democratic Party has moved left, or that he is in a dominant position to negotiate with the overwhelming winner. It’s not clear why the Biden camp should “give” Sanders anything.

Second, it is good to keep Biden in fighting form, continuing to boost turnout and showing, as he did in Philadelphia, how presidential he is. Biden can pivot to the general election, essentially ignoring Sanders. (His planned speech on the coronavirus is the perfect opportunity to leave Sanders out of the discussion entirely.)....

Whoever is to replace Sanders as the standard-bearer for the left — hopefully someone as smart and wonky as Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) — will need to learn how to win elections. (Hint: It is not by scaring voters or attaching oneself to the socialist label.) When in office, a new generation of leaders on the left will need to learn the art of deal-making rather than waste years, as Sanders has, rabble-rousing but accomplishing nothing. Unlike Sanders, Warren (or whoever else takes the reins) will not be burdened by a record of reflexively praising dictators nor be driven to attack fellow Democrats.

Sanders will end the race at some point, a diminished figure. In retrospect, his wins in 2016 will be seen more as an anti-Hillary Clinton vote than a pro-Sanders vote. How he behaves at Sunday’s debate will determine whether he leaves a bad taste in the mouths of Democrats.