Bernie Sanders is wrong on democratic socialism in Sweden, and everywhere else

[TwilightZone]

Note to potential alerters and jurors: the headline is NBC's, not mine. If you have a counter to or quarrel with the author's logic and expertise, feel free to comment on it.

Daniel Schatz, visiting scholar at New York University’s Center for European and Mediterranean Studies:

"But as a Scandinavian political scientist who has studied Nordic politics, economy and history in depth, I do not feel the Bern. The Vermont senator has embraced an urban legend; his love affair with Scandinavian socialism gets it all wrong.

Contrary to the prevailing narrative, the success of Nordic countries like Sweden — as measured by relatively high living standards accompanied by low poverty, with government-funded education through university, universal health coverage, generous parental-leave policies and long life spans — precedes the contemporary welfare state.

In fact, when we examine Nordic politics, economy and history as exemplified by Sweden, we find that the Northern European success story was not achieved thanks to a welfare model funded by high taxes, but perhaps despite it. It is high time Sanders stops misleading his followers on this score."

More:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/bernie-sanders-wrong-democratic-socialism-sweden-everywhere-else-ncna1158636

That's always been one of the main problems with Sanders' interpretation of democratic socialism and where it applies. If he doesn't even understand that it doesn't apply to countries like Sweden and Denmark, how can we expect voters to understand it and not be skeptical?

[rzemanfl]

1. Bookmarking.

[highplainsdem]

2. On the same note: Fareed Zakaria on "Bernie Sanders's Scandinavian fantasy":

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287595954

[Turin_C3PO]

3. I kind of like the article

but I wonder if the author is a conservative. His conclusion is that expanded government and higher taxes don’t work. That’s Reaganism and goes against what even moderate Democrats believe.

[Hortensis]

4. His "love affair" is with socialism. Sweden's a "bait and switch."

Has to be, same for the capitalist/for-profit MfA. Sanders may delude himself about many things, about us for sure, but he knows that he loathes and despises capitalism and all who support it, and he knows that democratic socialism is about communal ownership. Incremental change is seen as necessary to get people to give up their rights and into the deep water in small steps, and most collective control is to be localized instead of all in one central capital, but that's all.

[TwilightZone]

5. He uses Sweden, Denmark, etc., because there aren't any real-world examples to support the theory.

That, of course, is part of the problem with trying to convince people that it's a winning strategy. There's nowhere that it's been successfully implemented, so Sweden and others become inaccurate placeholders.

[Hortensis]

11. All have failed dreadfully. But European nations are not merely

"inaccurate placeholders." Sanders is trying to use them to trick people into voting for them/him -- a person who actually despises their capitalism-based systems.

Europe's social democracies and the U.S.'s capitalism-based systems are the same. The difference is that U.S. has socialized only one big national service, the VA, all others remaining capitalism-based, while they each have socialized more national services.

By doing that, Europe's "social democracies" successfully barred wannabe revolutionaries like Sanders from turning most of Europe into failed socialist states. And for that reason they are a big obstruction to the anti-capitalism dreams of democratic socialists.

Try, try again. But not with the U.S.

Sanders should purchase and socialize a "local" yogurt factory and see if he can make a go of that.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. Been looking into the concept of "democratic socialism" and it seems to have a rich history...

little of which has much of anything to do with anything Sanders is talking about.

Socialism always comes down to the means of production, which, in all modern societies, has pretty well worked out where the common or the capitalist is more efficient.

Other than that, the pesky little details like putting workers on corporate boards, wage and price controls, and other stuff to help manage the economy tend to end up irrelevant and not really do what they planned to do.

Just coming up with another wealth adjusting or welfare plan, no matter how well-intentioned or how well it works, is not socialism of any sort.

[Magoo48]

7. Both sides can point to countless articles in support of their positions, so,

It’s best to always error on the side of compassion and social justice for the suffering.

[TwilightZone]

10. Point to an article from a Scandinavian political expert who says that Sweden is demo. socialist.

We'll wait. The problem is, there aren't any because it's false.

How are we supposed to explain it to voters if Sanders doesn't even know? He's been at this for five years, and we're no closer to voters understanding it than we were in 2015.

Of course, the real problem is that he labelled himself inaccurately as a socialist decades ago and now he's stuck with it. Tacking on "democratic" didn't help. He (and we) now have to convince people that democratic socialism is really regulated capitalism, as Warren and others have described what progressives really want, outside of the die-hard socialists like the DSA. Had Sanders just dumped the inaccurate socialism label years ago, we wouldn't have this problem.

[Magoo48]

12. Very "socialist" country is different. Call them what you please.

What’s working for whom is what I’m concerned with.

[TwilightZone]

14. They're not socialist. That's the point.

Ask Denmark, a country Sanders frequently says is socialist.

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-minister-bernie-sanders

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/402682-nordic-nations-are-not-socialist-theyre-free-trade-lovers

He's simply wrong.

[Celerity]

8. I have battled his tosh on us (I am half Swedish, London raised, live in Stockholm atm) for years,

long before I joined DU. It drives me bonkers. We are NOT socialists, the mere suggestion is ludicrous. The actual socialist party here (now known as Vänsterpartiet, ie The Left Party) has never been in an actual full government with the Social Democrats and/or the Greens ie. Miljöpartiet de gröna) The closest they come are confidence-and-supply agreements on occasion.

Glad to see this bollocks being slapped down some more. The discrediting of these Sanderite falsehoods needs to continue ad infinitum.

[comradebillyboy]

9. It seems that 'democratic socialism' only exists in

Sanders imagination. Has there ever been a non-authoritarian socialist state? Perhaps Bernie believes that Cuba's one party dictatorship is an example of 'democratic socialism'.

[Julian English]

13. No news here.

He needs to toss in the towel. He can't and hasn't built a coalition. All he's done is built is a shrine to himself and his bourgiouse lake house.

[Cha]

15. KR!!