Men's Group
In reply to the discussion: Something making you feel bad isn't the same as Misogyny [View all]nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)there. Good point about the "PIV = rape" thing being, for all intents and purposes, a strawman. Even the dreaded Ms. Dworkin herself never actually said as much, though she may have made insinuations that edged fairly close to it - but her influence on current feminism is arguably rather limited, so no reason to fret about the woman (she's dead anyhow).
Another good point about looking versus staring. There is an important distinction there, and if someone hasn't learned it by early adulthood then I have to assume their interpersonal skills are even poorer than mine - and that's saying something! I also have to wonder how respectful they are of others' boundaries in general.
You also touched on how patronizing (at least implicitly) this "don't get raped" sort of stuff is to women, especially coming from men. Unless a woman is very young - like high school young - then she's probably long since learned what precautions she has to take out there in the world, and weighed the pros and cons and all that jazz.
"Denying rape culture" is kind of a stickier one for me though. I mean, I'm a dude so what do I know, but the disagreement here seems to be partly one of semantics. Whether you choose to call it "patriarchy" or "rape culture" or anything else, to me the really important thing is simply admitting there's a problem. Denying said problem exists in the first place, if anything, would be the misogynistic part. Make sense?
Porno is another subject I tend to agree with you on. I can't claim to be some innocent angel who hasn't seen a million naked ladies in his time, but I too am not only turned off but disturbed by overtly abusive, violent material - of which there seems to be quite a lot nowadays, sadly. Much of it seems to be less about sex per se than about pure humiliation and degradation. And the fact that there's a huge audience for this stuff is all kinds of fucked up - I would agree, generally speaking, that the guys watching it do have a genuine deep-down hatred of women, and that not all of them confine it to their private chambers. Nor do they necessarily confine their hatred to only women, for that matter.
Objectification, I suppose, is mostly covered by what I wrote above. Having sex with, or wanting to have sex with someone, doesn't by itself reduce them to an object, but conflating sex and violence ("I'm gonna kill that p**sy tonight!" does tend to. I guess in part it's the idea of doing something to someone rather than withthem, if that makes sense.
So yeah, this was long, but your post was too, so I didn't think you'd mind. I guess I also had quite a few ideas to get off my chest.