Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Creative Speculation
In reply to the discussion: North Tower Acceleration [View all]jesters
(108 posts)158. From: "Not so clever Trevor"
http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id5.html
"A few people have written to me over the past few months regarding an article by Mr. Trevor Self, from Albuquerque I believe, styling himself Newtons Bit. Rather than continue to answer these individually it will save time and effort if this reply is placed on the web and freely available. I have not previously bothered to answer this article because I did not believe that anyone would be taken in by his rubbish, riddled as it is with very basic errors, but for those who have not studied the subject it may prove beneficial to have some of these errors explained. Firstly I will deal with the arithmetical errors, then I will explain the engineering errors.
First of all the conversion from degrees to radians used by Mr Self is incorrect. There are pi (3.142) radians in 180 degrees, except apparently in New Mexico. This introduces an error of 200%.
There are four rotations in a three point buckle except in the mind of Mr Self who believes there are only three. A further error of 133%.
Mr Self uses a slenderness ratio which assumes that the columns in the towers were fitted with hinges on every storey. A casual glance at the towers proves this false, and the very fact that they stood for many years would help to confirm the non existence of these hinges. The error in slenderness ratio is 200%.
Mr Self chooses to call himself Newtons bit for some reason but his refusal to accept Newtons laws would have that famous man turning in his grave. Isaac Newton, or whirling Isaac as he is now known told us that each action has an equal and opposite reaction, but Mr Self chooses to ignore this fact conveniently allowing him to understate the energies involved by half. An error of 200%.
Mr. Self ignores the strengthening and bracing effect of the spandrel plates, core bracing, etc. The error is more difficult to quantify but is clearly significant. Why else would they have been included in the original design?
These errors when combined add up to ridiculous. It is easy to see therefore why I have previously dismissed this article without much comment. The only interesting part of this episode has been the manner in which supporters of the official story have latched onto it. There are those without the specialised knowledge to judge, who have betrayed their own unthinking bias by adopting Mr Selfs article without question. More importantly there are those who are or claim to be engineers and who do or should have that specialised knowledge and yet they have allowed the article to stand and allowed Mr. Self to continue to embarrass himself, even when these most basic errors have been pointed out.
I hope that this clears up a few issues for some people, but if questions continue then please do not hesitate to contact me."
"A few people have written to me over the past few months regarding an article by Mr. Trevor Self, from Albuquerque I believe, styling himself Newtons Bit. Rather than continue to answer these individually it will save time and effort if this reply is placed on the web and freely available. I have not previously bothered to answer this article because I did not believe that anyone would be taken in by his rubbish, riddled as it is with very basic errors, but for those who have not studied the subject it may prove beneficial to have some of these errors explained. Firstly I will deal with the arithmetical errors, then I will explain the engineering errors.
First of all the conversion from degrees to radians used by Mr Self is incorrect. There are pi (3.142) radians in 180 degrees, except apparently in New Mexico. This introduces an error of 200%.
There are four rotations in a three point buckle except in the mind of Mr Self who believes there are only three. A further error of 133%.
Mr Self uses a slenderness ratio which assumes that the columns in the towers were fitted with hinges on every storey. A casual glance at the towers proves this false, and the very fact that they stood for many years would help to confirm the non existence of these hinges. The error in slenderness ratio is 200%.
Mr Self chooses to call himself Newtons bit for some reason but his refusal to accept Newtons laws would have that famous man turning in his grave. Isaac Newton, or whirling Isaac as he is now known told us that each action has an equal and opposite reaction, but Mr Self chooses to ignore this fact conveniently allowing him to understate the energies involved by half. An error of 200%.
Mr. Self ignores the strengthening and bracing effect of the spandrel plates, core bracing, etc. The error is more difficult to quantify but is clearly significant. Why else would they have been included in the original design?
These errors when combined add up to ridiculous. It is easy to see therefore why I have previously dismissed this article without much comment. The only interesting part of this episode has been the manner in which supporters of the official story have latched onto it. There are those without the specialised knowledge to judge, who have betrayed their own unthinking bias by adopting Mr Selfs article without question. More importantly there are those who are or claim to be engineers and who do or should have that specialised knowledge and yet they have allowed the article to stand and allowed Mr. Self to continue to embarrass himself, even when these most basic errors have been pointed out.
I hope that this clears up a few issues for some people, but if questions continue then please do not hesitate to contact me."
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
207 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
Good video! It's certain to generate snark and slander and not much else by way of rebuttal. K&R (nt
T S Justly
Dec 2011
#19
Thanks, I think. Lol. But the video still trumps nonsensical Bush Era "science". (nt)
T S Justly
Dec 2011
#30
Lol, but yes. The videos have laid waste to Bush and his doctrinaires' output. (nt)
T S Justly
Dec 2011
#32
Rather, it is I who supports Chandler's video evidence of NIST/Commission fraud ...
T S Justly
Dec 2011
#35
Most of what we know about 9/11 didn't come from the "Bush administration"
William Seger
Dec 2011
#36
Most of what we know about 9/11 didn't come from the "Bush administration" - Lol, that is true. (nt)
T S Justly
Dec 2011
#37
"The lower block only slowed down the acceleration of the upper block's mass....
jesters
Jan 2012
#43
"Bazant's cartoon model which has largely been discarded by both sides of the debate now"
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#44
I don't see the problem with you providing a properly labelled free body diagram
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#54
"Bazant Zhou shows that the upper section would have had ~31 times the energy necessary
jesters
Jan 2012
#59
Yup, that's a clue. The section "Elastic Dynamic Analysis" is a little less obvious, but...
William Seger
Jan 2012
#89
"shown to be wrong by numerous independent analyses, on both sides of the debate."
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#74
Please provide the proof of physical and mathematical impossibility of 30% resistance.
AZCat
Jan 2012
#79
"The calculations have been done by many others." Which you continue to omit to link to.
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#85
Fortunately the lower section can absorb the energy. A miracle of highrise engineering.
jesters
Jan 2012
#92
No, but I have noticed so-called "truthers" assert amazing things without evidence
zappaman
Jan 2012
#102
"The lower structure can absorb the energy. That's what I've been saying for the last 18 posts."
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#95
Hmm. No links, no properly labeled free body diagram. Goodbye, jesters. n/t
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#99
"don't be presenting the Bazant model as if it doesn't have fatal flaws" Links, please.
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#148
after further review, Greening is NOT distinguishing between fracturing and pulverization
OnTheOtherHand
Jan 2012
#181
Not momentum loss; "momentum losses," Ross' term for the kinetic energy lost
William Seger
Jan 2012
#201
You are member of a tiny internet fringe group - lets not forget that simple fact
hack89
Jan 2012
#135
"intact 80 - 90-storey steel framed highrise" - just popping in to point out
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2012
#128
What I've noticed is that post #5 is still sitting there, unanswered. (n/t)
William Seger
Jan 2012
#83
A physics "gotcha"? No, you'd have to hand that to the guy who figured it out in the first place.
AZCat
Jan 2012
#125
You didn't respond to my questioning of your statement contradicting the second law.
AZCat
Jan 2012
#133
It doesn't matter if the bodies are moving or not, the second law still applies.
AZCat
Jan 2012
#137
You're assuming the buildings had a normal ability to withstand forces after collapse initiations
cpwm17
Jan 2012
#63