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William Seger

(11,042 posts)
28. I meant "shown" as in "demonstrated conclusively"
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 07:19 PM
Feb 2012

Has Chandler demonstrated either in the paper or the video that the acceleration was really constant? And why does it matter?

> And again, I believe I have a rudimentary understanding of the issue.

Apparently not, judging by this:

> It seems that his evidence of constant acceleration means that there was nothing there to slow them down when they collided.

No, he claims there was a "constant" downward acceleration of 0.64% of gravity, which means there was something slowing it down, but he claims not as much as should be expected.

> Is a constant acceleration AKA "free fall"?

No, free fall on Earth is a constant 32 feet per second per second, whereas Chandler is claiming a "constant" acceleration a little over 20 feet per second per second for the collapse.

Imagine a frozen pond with a brick sitting on the surface. When frozen, the water easily supports the brick. Now imagine that the ice suddenly melted, allowing the brick to fall to the bottom of the pond. It would fall smoothly through the water at a constant acceleration, but it would be something less than the acceleration it would have if falling through a vacuum because it has to push water out of the way -- agreed?

Chandler's "constant acceleration" claim amounts to saying that the tower collapses showed something like that kind of behavior, and he claims that means some "extra energy" must have come from somewhere to reduce the load capacity of the structure to only 36% of the upper block's weight.

The aforementioned university professor who writes structural mechanics textbooks and peer-reviewed journal papers (Bazant, in case you were wondering) claims that in order to halt a collapse after it begins, the structure below must somehow absorb the gravitational energy released in that initial fall, and he provides calculations to show that even with conservative estimates, there was much more energy released than the structure could absorb.

Right from the outset, the professor's claim sounds reasonable to me, while Chandler's sounds very dubious -- he appears to be ignoring any dynamic behavior -- but is there any empirical way to tell who is right? Well, Chandler would seem to predict that a progressive vertical failure is impossible without something weakening the structure, but the video is a demonstration of a European demolition technique called Verinage. It uses a system of cables and jacks to cause pairs of load-bearing walls to collapse, simply dropping the top of a building onto the bottom and letting gravity do the rest, with no "extra energy" (e.g. explosives) required. It's impossible not to notice the similarity to the tower collapses.

A Verinage demolition doesn't fall with a constant acceleration, however. It's an initial free fall followed by a collision in which velocity is lost but the impulse force causes a structural failure at that level, so the accumulating mass falls freely again to a collision with the next floor. Very careful measurements would show that the acceleration of the collapse varies because of that alternating sequence of collision jolts and free falls. But since the velocity is always increasing, if you only took position measurements with low resolution or at widely spaced points (or both), you wouldn't see those variations: It would look like a fairly constant acceleration and furthermore it would be in the ballpark of 0.64% g, more or less.

That's why it's critical that Chandler doesn't really demonstrate that the acceleration was constant. All he does is plot some points on a graph, draw a line through them, and then claim that the straight line means a constant acceleration. No, it does not; not if you don't know what's happening between the points. Furthermore, for that matter, Chandler doesn't justify that any impulse jolts could be measured at the roof line, even with better measurements, given that the tower collapses involved a tilted fall rather than the straight-down fall of a Verinage demolition. (That tilt would mean that collisions were happening in different places at different times, so instead of a single massive jolt that could easily be observed at one point in time, there would be much smaller jolts distributed in time.) In a previous post, I described a couple of failure modes that would result in local failure followed by local free fall, and I noted that what we really see is the average result of thousands of such events. I claim that what we see in the towers is simply that the average acceleration was 0.64% of gravity, although it was not really constant.

But that isn't the only problem with Chandler's hypothesis: He wants to conclude that his analysis means there must have been a controlled demolition but he fails to describe any demolition technique involving explosives that would produce a constant, like-a-brick-through-water smooth acceleration of 0.64% g. I don't believe that's possible, but feel free to give it a try. So not only does Chandler assume constant acceleration without justification, he also assumes an unjustified reason for it.

I stopped at #1. zappaman Feb 2012 #1
actually it doesn't weaken steel Rosa Luxemburg Feb 2012 #30
Did I use the wrong word? zappaman Feb 2012 #31
Facts? These questions show that you've already been bamboozled William Seger Feb 2012 #2
Pancake theory leaves Politicalboi Mar 2012 #63
Nonsense will never change my mind, but actual evidence certainly would. William Seger Mar 2012 #67
I would really like to know what you believe to be the relevance of point 1 jberryhill Feb 2012 #3
Not completely cbrer Feb 2012 #4
Keep up the inquiry, please. earcandle Feb 2012 #5
"Conflicting data"? William Seger Feb 2012 #6
Indubitably (sp?) cbrer Feb 2012 #7
If you don't have the background to wade through the equations used... AZCat Feb 2012 #8
Not asking for defense cbrer Feb 2012 #10
If you could apply the laws of physics to 9/11 as you claim, you LARED Feb 2012 #13
Uh... Yes, you did. AZCat Feb 2012 #15
I stand corrected cbrer Feb 2012 #17
Have you read the NIST NCSTARs? AZCat Feb 2012 #22
If you "don't have the background to wade through the equations"... William Seger Feb 2012 #23
Those curves are typical... jberryhill Feb 2012 #9
Steel cbrer Feb 2012 #11
No one has told you to STFU jberryhill Feb 2012 #12
I need to start using the sarcasm emoticon cbrer Feb 2012 #14
"Lots of conflicting information by credible sources exist" jberryhill Feb 2012 #34
Google cbrer Feb 2012 #20
I misremembered the name jberryhill Feb 2012 #24
Thanks for the link cbrer Feb 2012 #25
This is pure nonsense.... jberryhill Feb 2012 #33
Maybe you can answer this for me then BobbyBoring Mar 2012 #54
And your explanation for that is....? jberryhill Mar 2012 #57
Here's one BobbyBoring Mar 2012 #58
Yes, David Chandler is a kook William Seger Feb 2012 #16
Potential yes, but... cbrer Feb 2012 #18
"... is shown to have been in constant downward acceleration until it disappeared." William Seger Feb 2012 #26
He states that it's in the video. cbrer Feb 2012 #27
I meant "shown" as in "demonstrated conclusively" William Seger Feb 2012 #28
Thanks cbrer Feb 2012 #29
Two weeks have passed and still no response, even LARED Mar 2012 #45
Weak assed effort cbrer Mar 2012 #46
Here is what I am seriously suggesting LARED Mar 2012 #50
An open mind cbrer Mar 2012 #53
Honestly is appreciated nt LARED Mar 2012 #62
I'll quibble with #4 OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #59
Quibble noted LARED Mar 2012 #61
seems fair, although personally I would avoid legal terms of art OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #70
nice post -- I'll just point out a recurring typo OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #32
And... cbrer Feb 2012 #19
For someone who claims to be curious, why have you not read any critical analysis of this POS? jberryhill Feb 2012 #35
Partial link- sorry cbrer Feb 2012 #21
"2. Timing does show some free fall throughout collapse of towers." jberryhill Feb 2012 #36
As I previously noted cbrer Feb 2012 #37
It doesn't require any particular expertise... jberryhill Feb 2012 #38
You were able cbrer Feb 2012 #39
No, you are not seeking information jberryhill Feb 2012 #40
here's the thing OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #41
Based on sources cited here cbrer Mar 2012 #47
"Please read these quotes and comment as to veracity." jberryhill Mar 2012 #51
My little personal story libodem Mar 2012 #42
I don't understand zappaman Mar 2012 #43
I know it is silly libodem Mar 2012 #48
"a bunch of nomads and a camel" jberryhill Mar 2012 #52
yes and no OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #60
Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BobbyBoring Mar 2012 #55
I would have got it a lot sooner zappaman Mar 2012 #56
Well... terrafirma Mar 2012 #44
So amazing...after all these years libodem Mar 2012 #49
Lobby windows blown out Politicalboi Mar 2012 #64
Situational evidence cbrer Mar 2012 #68
You can add two more indicators of an inside job.... Mr. Skeptik Mar 2012 #69
huh? OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #71
Sure, Mr. Skeptik Mar 2012 #73
Nonsense William Seger Mar 2012 #74
darn it, you type too fast! OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #76
I guess it depends... William Seger Mar 2012 #78
yeah, it's easy to end up making people's arguments for them OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #81
seriously? OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #75
lots of odd assertions here OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #72
Oh and Politicalboi Mar 2012 #65
Oh boy, such nonsense sgsmith Mar 2012 #66
This thread is a hoot!!! Broderick Mar 2012 #77
I was hoping cbrer Mar 2012 #79
Have you drank too much Broderick Mar 2012 #80
you're not familiar with "formulae"? OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #82
chime in about what? I'm confused OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #83
No reason cbrer Mar 2012 #84
yes, there is a lot to be learned (or that can be learned) OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #85
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Creative Speculation»OK then. Just the facts. ...»Reply #28