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William Seger

(11,047 posts)
95. Oh, you never said the collapse has to be halted?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:20 AM
Nov 2013

Oh, so this was yet another thread with no real point except for your desperate search to be right about something -- anything -- even if there's no real significance to it? Oh, well, there's not much else going here, so let's continue discussing why your search has not yet ended...

> As the upper block nibbles away the lower, the lower nibbles away the upper. There is no debris mat.

Huh? How did you make the debris disappear? Yes, the "lower nibbles away the upper" but what we're discussing is Gourley's mistaken notion that it was "equal and opposite" to "the upper block nibbles away the lower." In the Verinage videos, what we see is that the upper blocks only shorten by one floor while "pile-driving" through several lower floors:




Bazant explains this; Gourley does not.

> Dr. Bazant's theory rears no resemblance to reality. There is no evidence of a pristine top "block" riding a debris mat down to the ground, pulverizing all the floors in the way. No photos. No photo evidence from the debris pile. The notion is refuted by the persistence of the lower core, and by the fact that the upper block on WTC1 was visibly coming apart before the structure under the impact zone failed. Dr. Bazant's theory is thus discredited.

Again, it isn't possible to see through the smoke and dust, so there is no evidence of Gourley's "equal and opposite" claim, either. Before smoke and dust obscures everything, we can see a couple of floors of the upper block destroyed, but Bazant acknowledges that -- those first few floors are where the debris layer comes from. (However, we can see in the videos that your claim that "the upper block on WTC1 was visibly coming apart before the structure under the impact zone failed" is just silly.) But what we can say is that Bazant takes into account the effect of the falling debris, which Gourley's claim clearly does not, so it makes more sense to say that it's Gourley's claim that "bears no resemblance to reality." Since you still haven't addressed it, I will just post this again, as promised:

2. Are the Internal Forces in Upper and Lower Parts of Tower Equal?

Contrary to the discusser’s claim which is based on his understanding of Newton’s third law, these forces are not equal, as made clear by Fig. 2 (g and h) of the original paper. Their difference is equal to the weight of the intermediate compacted layer B plus the inertia force attributable to the acceleration of layer B (for additional accuracy, one may also add the energy per unit height needed for the comminution of concrete and the expelling of air, which are secondary phenomena not taken into consideration in the original paper). When the compacted layer attains a sufficient mass, which occurs after the collapse of only a few stories, this difference becomes very large.


I see that you also dodged my point that "crush down/crush up" is an aspect of Bazant's one-dimensional model, but it is not in any way an essential part of his fundamental energy argument, so let's get back to that:

> Dr. Bazant's "limiting case" assumes MAXIMAL transmission of kinetic energy to the structure.

It doesn't matter how many times you say that; it's still bullshit: There is no such assumption in the analysis, and in fact your reasoning is exactly backwards about what difference that would make, anyway. You simply do not (or more likely, disingenuously refuse to) understand what the analysis demonstrates. But I'll give it one more try, explaining it as simply and clearly as possible: The analysis calculates the maximum amount of energy that would be absorbed, even if every columns presented its maximum resistance up to the point of buckling, even though we can be pretty sure that that's not what happened in many cases. In many cases, floors were ripped away from the columns and they were simply pushed aside, absorbing much less energy than would be absorbed by buckling. The analysis then compares that maximum possible energy absorption to the gravitational energy that was present and finds that there was a huge disparity: the structure simply could not absorb that much energy, even under the most optimistic assumptions. The conclusion is therefore undeniable: If the energy of the falling mass could not be absorbed, then the collapse was bound to continue all the way to the ground.

There are only there possible ways to refute Bazant's analyiss: Prove there was less energy available than he calculates; prove that the structure could absorb more energy than he calculates; or prove that the conclusion I italicized about is fallacious. When you don't even attempt to address any one of those, you simply demonstrate that you don't understand why you need to, which means you're just wasting everyone's time with drivel like this:

> It ignores all the energy requirements of pulverizing the floors. breaking connections, twisting and crushing the steel.

Bullshit, if there was 8 times more energy available than would be required to buckle every column, then there was enough energy to explain all the other damage. Furthermore, there was no "requirement" to pulverize the floors in order to bring down the building, and in fact, that pulverization simply demonstrates how much extra energy there was. Again, you are parroting illogical "truther" bullshit about that, and what's really hilarious about claiming that as a reason to doubt a "natural" collapse is that "truthers" don't seem to understand what they are implying: Since thermite can't pulverize concrete, they are implying that the "perps" used many, many extra tons of their magical silent explosives to pulverize concrete, for no apparent reason whatsoever. Pulverizing concrete with explosives is no easy task, either: You would need to put huge amount of it all over the office spaces.

> I never said the collapse has to be halted. That's a straw man argument.

My apologies, then, for assuming that you have an actual argument. For some reason, I thought you were attempting to deny Bazant's conclusion that total collapse was inevitable after it got started, as a way of making controlled demolition sound like the only plausible explanation.

> But I've never seen anyone do an energy budget that accounts for all the energy sinks (pulverizing the floors. breaking connections, twisting and crushing the steel) at all, let alone one that explains the speed of the collapses. Instead, NIST simply dodges the issue.

Where have you looked? I mentioned in a different thread that "truther" Gordon Ross attempted such an analysis, but he made a gross error that led him to the wrong conclusion. That analysis is still online ("truther" bullshit being as hard to kill as Freddy Krueger), and I mentioned what the error was if you want to investigate it.

NIST correctly stated that the progressive collapse after initiation was "readily explained," and FEMA and Bazant aren't the only ones to do so. If you're satisfied with your lame excuses for discounting NIST, FEMA, and Bazant, then get busy on this list: https://sites.google.com/site/911science/

The sad thing about this interview... William Seger Jul 2013 #1
If you've never seen the "conspiracy theorist" label applied to anyone Ace Acme Oct 2013 #2
Bullshit. Conspriacry theorists don't "QUESTION" the official account William Seger Oct 2013 #3
You've changed the spec. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #4
Your compulsion to respond to every post William Seger Oct 2013 #5
You claimed that the "conspiracy theorist" label was not applied to legitimate skeptics Ace Acme Oct 2013 #6
LOL, are you walking back your "competent demolitionist" theory? William Seger Oct 2013 #7
Non sequitur, false dichotomy, straw man nonsense nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #8
Priceless! William Seger Oct 2013 #9
And now we can add argument-by-emoticon to the list Ace Acme Oct 2013 #10
Except that wasn't intended as an argument William Seger Oct 2013 #11
Non sequitur, false dichotomy, straw man nonsense was your attempt at an argument nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #12
Actually, that post wasn't an "argument" either William Seger Oct 2013 #13
I'm glad we agree on that. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #14
LOL William Seger Oct 2013 #15
When LOL is all you've got it's time to pack it in nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #16
This silly thread was due for packing in several posts ago William Seger Oct 2013 #17
The silliness was entirely yours. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #18
Nope, it turned silly when you denied being a conspiracy theorist (n/t) William Seger Nov 2013 #19
I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #20
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service joeglow3 Nov 2013 #21
Would you prefer the term "truther"? William Seger Nov 2013 #22
So now you're down to argument-by-emoticon and argument-by-label. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #23
Holy crap. zappaman Nov 2013 #24
When and where was it proven? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #25
You haven't actually read the report, have you? (n/t) William Seger Nov 2013 #28
Well, in this case, the argument WAS about the label William Seger Nov 2013 #26
"conspiracy theorist" has become an idiomatic expression Ace Acme Nov 2013 #29
"believed by lazy fools" William Seger Nov 2013 #30
The history of those alleged hijackers' training includes registered addresses Ace Acme Nov 2013 #31
KSM was not being tortured in April 2002 William Seger Nov 2013 #32
Fosri is a liar. His reports can not be verified and he admitted he lied. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #33
So, the best you can do is fart in the general direction of some of the confessions William Seger Nov 2013 #34
You're Quote Mining After I Already Pointed that Out Ace Acme Nov 2013 #35
Intellectual fraud much? William Seger Nov 2013 #38
You're changing the subject from column access to collapse initiation. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #40
Say what?! Changing the subject? YOU claimed easy column access William Seger Nov 2013 #42
Core column access from elevator shafts would have facilitated planting Ace Acme Nov 2013 #44
"I didn't say that..." William Seger Nov 2013 #47
I didn't say that. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #49
Sorry, but I don't take you as seriously as you do William Seger Nov 2013 #50
The distortion is entirely yours. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #51
Again, you want to make your reading comprehension issues my problem William Seger Nov 2013 #53
You're trying to make your mischaracterization of the record my problem. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #55
What "mischaracterization" is that? William Seger Nov 2013 #59
It was possible to access most of the main structural columns from the elevator shafts Ace Acme Nov 2013 #61
No, it was not William Seger Nov 2013 #63
Most of the main structural core columns were accessible from the elevator shafts Ace Acme Nov 2013 #64
You have a peculiar way of dealing with being wrong William Seger Nov 2013 #67
I wasn't wrong Ace Acme Nov 2013 #68
Hmm... could be we just disagree about the meaning of the terms William Seger Nov 2013 #72
This is quite interesting. AZCat Nov 2013 #74
Of course we disagree. You redefine terms to fit your rhetorical needs Ace Acme Nov 2013 #75
Holy cow William Seger Nov 2013 #78
As usual, you know not whereof you speak. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #80
As usual, you attach undue significance to your own interpretation William Seger Nov 2013 #81
NIST lied. The collapses were not explained. The 10 mysteries were not addressed. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #82
NIST did not lie. Collapse propagation had ALREADY been explained William Seger Nov 2013 #83
NIST does not credit Dr. Bazant for explaining the collapse Ace Acme Nov 2013 #84
Newton's Third Law? William Seger Nov 2013 #85
Newton's 3rd Law Ace Acme Nov 2013 #86
You're overlooking something simple William Seger Nov 2013 #87
Yes, when the debris becomes overwhelming, the tower falls. Duh. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #88
Say what? It seems you don't understand what Bazant is saying William Seger Nov 2013 #89
There is no insulating mat in the Verinage demonstrations Ace Acme Nov 2013 #90
This is like "debating" a brick wall William Seger Nov 2013 #91
IOW, your airy handwaving can not defeat fact and physical principles Ace Acme Nov 2013 #92
You can run but you can't hide William Seger Nov 2013 #93
The verinage videos show Newton's Third Law in Action. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #94
Oh, you never said the collapse has to be halted? William Seger Nov 2013 #95
Nobel Prize Awarded to Anonymous Internet Poster Ace Acme Nov 2013 #96
"How could we have been so wrong?" William Seger Nov 2013 #97
The point is irrelevant. Bazant's model does not resemble reality. NIST does not name him. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #98
It wouldn't be irrelevant if you actually wanted your "mysteries" solved William Seger Nov 2013 #99
Bazant's theory bears no resemblance to reality. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #100
You don't UNDERSTAND anything Bazant says William Seger Nov 2013 #101
I understand what he says just fine. What he says bears no resemblance to reality. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #102
Good comeback. zappaman Nov 2013 #103
When did I show my inability to understand? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #105
You demonstrate it with every post. zappaman Nov 2013 #107
You make empty claims. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #108
Uh huh. zappaman Nov 2013 #109
Your pretenses bear no resemblance to reality William Seger Nov 2013 #104
The game here is not worth the candle of intelligent discussion. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #106
"If I put any effort into any posts..." zappaman Nov 2013 #110
But you've posted 53 times in this thread alone William Seger Nov 2013 #111
You have done far more typing, and far less thinking, than I. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #112
Whatever thinking you have done about Bazant's analysis ... William Seger Nov 2013 #113
I understand Dr. Bazant's analysis just fine. It ain't rocket science. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #114
So your best is to change the subject and try to ignore the fact that your expert Ace Acme Nov 2013 #36
Your dismissal of the confessions was so obviously lame... William Seger Nov 2013 #37
Uncorroborated hearsay accounts from admitted liars are not good evidence. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #39
Confessions to third parties are not considered to be hearsay William Seger Nov 2013 #41
"Confessions" to interested parties that are known to lie to achieve their objectives Ace Acme Nov 2013 #43
I though maybe you'd enjoy researching it yourself William Seger Nov 2013 #45
It is hardly an argument from incredulity to ask you to document your claims Ace Acme Nov 2013 #46
Done, and your predictable response: argument from incredulity William Seger Nov 2013 #52
I didn't "focus" on "paper". It was the first point of many. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #56
Osama's Alleged Confession is a Moot Point Ace Acme Nov 2013 #48
Once upon a time in a cave far, far away.... William Seger Nov 2013 #54
Do you have a point? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #57
Yep, point is: fairy tales don't make OBL's confessions moot William Seger Nov 2013 #58
Sibel Edmonds is not a fairy tale Ace Acme Nov 2013 #60
Bull William Seger Nov 2013 #62
Your claims sure are Ace Acme Nov 2013 #65
There's that reading comprehension thing again. William Seger Nov 2013 #66
There's your selective quoting again. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #69
Your dishonest arguments are becoming tiresome William Seger Nov 2013 #70
Your hysterical blindness is showing. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #71
LMAO William Seger Nov 2013 #73
Your claim that I gave up is fraudulent nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #76
Well, you're not even trying to justify your claim William Seger Nov 2013 #77
You blow so much smoke I don't even remember what my claim was. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #79
(Deleted misplaced reply) William Seger Nov 2013 #27
ah nevermind.. wildbilln864 Feb 2014 #115
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