Religion

Soph0571

(9,685 posts) Sun Nov 4, 2018, 08:31 AM Nov 2018

Do we have FREE WILL? [View all]

Are we the master of our own destiny or are we all victims of fate? Is our life’s paths predetermined as part of Gods plan or can you overcome your circumstances? Are we prisioners to fate or to our biology?

The idea / concept of free will to make decisions that impact our futures touches all of our lives every day, but many people believe that free will is an illusion. It is true that no-one knows what is going to happen next. Life is a tale of the unexpected and through the amazing and yet to be fully understood complexity of our consciousness we make daily decisions about what we do. But can those decisions ever be truly unfettered and if not, how can we have pure free will? There is an ideal of free will that there is magical power to make choices for ourselves, that are not constrained choices. That in some way our choices are not predetermined to some extent by our history, our biology, our society. How can that be logical? Surely, we are all products, to one degree or another, of our past.
Is free will all a matter a definition? Free ‘will’ and free ‘won’t’ mean different things to people from different faiths and those of no faith. If we go with a pragmatic definition of free will then I think we can accept that most human beings have the capacity to learn from our mistakes and adjust our future behaviour accordingly.

The theology of free will is somewhat baffling. If your faith construct offers you a belief in a final judgement, in eternal punishment or eternal salvation then to justify this you need to attribute to human beings not only the capacity to make choices, but that we have the capacity to make choices that are wholly responsible for what we do, how we do it, and the outcomes for us from those choices. In essence, the buck stops with us. But this cannot be realistic. We can of course all make moral choices but they are constrained by environmental, societal and historical factors. We do not have pure free will, to pretend otherwise is a cop out for those who are not interested in social justice.

Pure free will is used as a great excuse to stifle social support networks. If they just made better choices, they would better themselves. They have a freedom to choose. Free will is much more complex than that.

96 replies

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Do we have FREE WILL? [View all] Soph0571 Nov 2018 OP

'Free Will' is complex. It becomes more complex when . . . empedocles Nov 2018 #1

Yes, but only to the extent that we are KPN Nov 2018 #2

Makes you feel sorry for Judas packman Nov 2018 #3

Is God a Taoist? CrispyQ Nov 2018 #4

We have free will, within the parameters that limit us. MineralMan Nov 2018 #5

Well, that could be a narrower definition of "free will", since pretty much everything has limits... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #8

It is the definition I use. MineralMan Nov 2018 #9

Well, you certainly think you have free will, but there is that nagging question about... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #11

It's a matter of scale, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #12

But are YOU making the choices or are the choices being made for you? You think Doodley Nov 2018 #77

Theologians ask about Free Will in the context edhopper Nov 2018 #6

With or without gods, is the universe pre-determined? Einstein gave us the first hint... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #10

Ah, whether time is a series of cause and effect edhopper Nov 2018 #14

For an individual's existence, larger concepts about time are unnecessary. MineralMan Nov 2018 #15

but is making a decision edhopper Nov 2018 #16

You have to give an unfalsifyable definition of free will first marylandblue Nov 2018 #17

Talking in circles is what religion is all about. MineralMan Nov 2018 #19

Free will is really a philosophical or scientific issue marylandblue Nov 2018 #20

See, I don't do "faith." So, my use of the term is based on MineralMan Nov 2018 #22

You have to agree on definitions at least for discussion purposes marylandblue Nov 2018 #32

I doubt that is possible. edhopper Nov 2018 #28

Then free will is a meaningless concept marylandblue Nov 2018 #33

Yes and no edhopper Nov 2018 #35

I thought you said no falsifiable definition was possible marylandblue Nov 2018 #40

I think it's a concept worth discussing edhopper Nov 2018 #41

Love has multiple falsifiable definitions marylandblue Nov 2018 #42

I see what you are saying edhopper Nov 2018 #43

love is way easier than free will qazplm135 Nov 2018 #55

We don't need to know the nature of consciousness to have a falsiable definition marylandblue Nov 2018 #57

the two are very much tied together qazplm135 Nov 2018 #59

no, not meaningless qazplm135 Nov 2018 #50

For something to be meaningful, it has to have a definition marylandblue Nov 2018 #53

plenty of things do not have a perfect definition qazplm135 Nov 2018 #54

You have an implicit definition in there marylandblue Nov 2018 #56

I have a fuzzy definition qazplm135 Nov 2018 #58

All you need is to have two types of worlds marylandblue Nov 2018 #60

no, I haven't qazplm135 Nov 2018 #61

I didn't patronize you, I just gave my opinion of what you did marylandblue Nov 2018 #62

I don't "want" to do anything. qazplm135 Nov 2018 #63

I don' t think you have an ulterior anything marylandblue Nov 2018 #64

What you say is based on the key assumption that we have free will. Doodley Nov 2018 #81

based on what? qazplm135 Nov 2018 #85

Good answer, but when you say we are not slaves to our genes and environment, do you Doodley Nov 2018 #79

machines are way more predictable qazplm135 Nov 2018 #84

May I suggest that if you were truly free or even partially capable of free will, you would at least Doodley Nov 2018 #87

How am I not capable of considering it? qazplm135 Nov 2018 #94

Then I have misinterpreted your words, for which I apologize. Doodley Nov 2018 #95

Good questions. I don't have good answers. MineralMan Nov 2018 #18

and then we have to consider edhopper Nov 2018 #23

Both you and I are interested in the neuroscience of decision-making. MineralMan Nov 2018 #21

It's like how much edhopper Nov 2018 #24

Yes. Emotions play a big role in elections, and on both sides. MineralMan Nov 2018 #25

The media plays a big roll in this edhopper Nov 2018 #27

The media is driven by emotions just like everyone else nt marylandblue Nov 2018 #31

That is why edhopper Nov 2018 #36

It's okay if you recognize it for what it is marylandblue Nov 2018 #30

not always edhopper Nov 2018 #37

I don't think either side has a monopoly on facts or truth marylandblue Nov 2018 #38

it's not binary edhopper Nov 2018 #39

They think they are being rational marylandblue Nov 2018 #44

I would agree with you as far as conservative voters edhopper Nov 2018 #45

I always wonder whether people believe the lies they say marylandblue Nov 2018 #47

I doubt McConnell believes edhopper Nov 2018 #48

You believe this, but suppose it was all an illusion. There is no evidence that we have free will. Doodley Nov 2018 #78

No, I don't think it's an illusion at all. MineralMan Nov 2018 #80

Of course it seems that way. You make decisions and you see those decision have an outcome. Doodley Nov 2018 #82

Yours is not a new idea, of course. MineralMan Nov 2018 #83

You appear to be unwilling to even consider you may be wrong. Does that sound like free will? Doodley Nov 2018 #86

Actually, I have considered that many times. I've thought a great deal about MineralMan Nov 2018 #90

I have read many posts of yours in which you (rightly so) expect a higher degree of evidence. Doodley Nov 2018 #91

Oh, there is plenty of evidence that people exercise free will MineralMan Nov 2018 #92

Partial free will qazplm135 Nov 2018 #7

where is this 'Free Will' of which you speak? uriel1972 Nov 2018 #65

You apply an all or nothing to the concept of free qazplm135 Nov 2018 #66

Yes I do... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #67

There are degrees of freedom qazplm135 Nov 2018 #68

Like many ideas... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #69

Why do you hate paragraphs? Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #70

like many ideas... qazplm135 Nov 2018 #71

There is evidence for paragraphs. uriel1972 Nov 2018 #73

String theories and many worlds theories Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #74

I like the idea of being "captain of the soul." marylandblue Nov 2018 #13

"We can of course all make moral choices but they are constrained by environmental, societal and ... Jim__ Nov 2018 #26

Nope... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #29

Two distinct concepts zipplewrath Nov 2018 #34

You are right. Mental illness and brain injury can result in changes in behavior - Do those Doodley Nov 2018 #88

Exactly zipplewrath Nov 2018 #96

Your definition of free will would apply to an amoeba. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #46

Some willfully chose not to do so Major Nikon Nov 2018 #75

For the religious, there is no free will. There is only allowed will. keithbvadu2 Nov 2018 #49

There is cause in effect. Every thing that happens wasupaloopa Nov 2018 #51

not at the quantum level qazplm135 Nov 2018 #72

Exactly. Doodley Nov 2018 #89

Maybe (or maybe not) but we do have... C_U_L8R Nov 2018 #52

No, I do not believe we have free will and I don't see any evidence that we do. Doodley Nov 2018 #76

Buddhists say all is cause and effect. If you live in your habits WhiteTara Nov 2018 #93