Religion

keithbvadu2

(40,160 posts)

118. What other outcomes are there?

Reply to Major Nikon (Reply #117)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 04:44 PM

Jan 2019

What other outcomes are there?

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I have nothing against people who don't believe in spirituality, but people who proselytize non- [View all] highplainsdem Jan 2019 OP

Non-believers don't proselytize - it's not a religion... KCDebbie Jan 2019 #1

Really? See this link: highplainsdem Jan 2019 #3

Richard Dawkins does not post on DU. MineralMan Jan 2019 #4

????? I don't recall suggesting that Dawkins ever posted here. highplainsdem Jan 2019 #8

Atheism is not a belief system PJMcK Jan 2019 #91

Actually, it is zipplewrath Jan 2019 #182

Boy, that is backwards thinking! PJMcK Jan 2019 #185

"One can't prove..." zipplewrath Jan 2019 #186

Atheism is not a belief. It is simply non-belief in a particular thing. MineralMan Jan 2019 #189

"I don't believe..." zipplewrath Jan 2019 #190

No, zipplewrath, I do not believe that any deities exist at all. MineralMan Jan 2019 #191

If that were so zipplewrath Jan 2019 #197

.. MineralMan Jan 2019 #198

Nonsense; one can lack an affirmative belief while still understanding the concept. I know what LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #204

Right zipplewrath Jan 2019 #206

As a result of the lack of evidence. We're back to Russell's Teapot LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #209

Well, outside of faith zipplewrath Jan 2019 #218

Conclusion in the absence of proof, is not belief, but "faith" LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #205

Basically the same thing zipplewrath Jan 2019 #207

No, they are not; this is the problem with arguing with the religious: the definitions keep changing LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #208

Not what I'm doing zipplewrath Jan 2019 #210

Then your conclusion is accurate, but meaningless. /nt LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #211

Not exactly zipplewrath Jan 2019 #212

Again, it's meaningless, since you pick and choose the definition of "believe" at will. /nt LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #214

In an attempt for clarity... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #215

In a great case if irony zipplewrath Jan 2019 #219

Apparently... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #220

Nope, you're completely wrong. trotsky Jan 2019 #237

Nope zipplewrath Jan 2019 #239

Depends on how the god is defined. trotsky Jan 2019 #241

How did I do that? zipplewrath Jan 2019 #242

You admitted that lacking belief in someone's brand new god is not a belief system in itself. trotsky Jan 2019 #243

Well, not what the OP was talking about zipplewrath Jan 2019 #245

But that's not what you originally argued. trotsky Jan 2019 #247

I believe I suggested "most" zipplewrath Jan 2019 #248

Nope, here's what you said in response to the claim "Atheism is not a belief system." trotsky Jan 2019 #249

In the context of the OP zipplewrath Jan 2019 #258

You didn't specify that at all. trotsky Jan 2019 #260

No I didn't zipplewrath Jan 2019 #262

Seems silly when your reply is addressing a specific statement made by another poster... trotsky Jan 2019 #265

Is your disbelief in the tooth fairy a belief system? Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #267

Not really zipplewrath Jan 2019 #268

Can you prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist? trotsky Jan 2019 #298

Roughly speaking zipplewrath Jan 2019 #299

So no, you can't conclusively prove it. trotsky Jan 2019 #300

Um, yes I can zipplewrath Jan 2019 #301

No, you can't. trotsky Jan 2019 #302

No zipplewrath Jan 2019 #303

Aha. There's actually lots of evidence against many gods. trotsky Jan 2019 #304

Nope zipplewrath Jan 2019 #306

So what you're saying is... trotsky Jan 2019 #307

All entities zipplewrath Jan 2019 #308

There's no way to prove one way or another that "no unicorns" exist. trotsky Jan 2019 #309

Actually zipplewrath Jan 2019 #310

No god has ever been seen, photographed, or physical evidence found either. trotsky Jan 2019 #311

No special exemption zipplewrath Jan 2019 #312

Yeah, that's exactly what you are defending. trotsky Jan 2019 #313

No zipplewrath Jan 2019 #314

If the assertion is that God edhopper Jan 2019 #321

Undetectable impact zipplewrath Jan 2019 #324

So the claim of atheists edhopper Jan 2019 #325

fine zipplewrath Jan 2019 #330

My experience edhopper Jan 2019 #331

Honestly, I've never encountered an atheist Mariana Jan 2019 #332

I have met many believers with doubts edhopper Jan 2019 #333

nonacceptance of deities zipplewrath Jan 2019 #334

Do you accept that bigfoot is real edhopper Jan 2019 #335

If you read the thread zipplewrath Jan 2019 #337

Description of deities edhopper Jan 2019 #338

If there is no way to know one way or another, then there is no reason to believe they are real. LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #339

It is not a conclusion Farmer-Rick Jan 2019 #277

covered this yesterday zipplewrath Jan 2019 #278

A question PJMcK Jan 2019 #286

Well, belief is the whole thing zipplewrath Jan 2019 #288

Atheists like to say that atheism is not a belief system, because it doesn't fit their self-image Fortinbras Armstrong Jan 2019 #285

That's just absolutely wrong PJMcK Jan 2019 #287

Be careful with that one. He's not honest. trotsky Jan 2019 #294

Good to know PJMcK Jan 2019 #295

If yoiu don't believe in a diety, then YOU prove it. Fortinbras Armstrong Jan 2019 #296

Once again, that's not how science works PJMcK Jan 2019 #297

Then prove that you're not a serial killer. You can't. LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #305

And your quite affirmative claim is "There is no God" Fortinbras Armstrong Jan 2019 #315

I do not claim 'There is no God' uriel1972 Jan 2019 #317

I need not claim; "there is no god"; I simply state that I lack the belief in a god. LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #318

I don't use the word belief edhopper Jan 2019 #323

I usually just say "I don't beilve in god". If they're open to duscission, I can clarify, LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #326

In a general conversation, yes edhopper Jan 2019 #327

Edhopper has a point. Mariana Jan 2019 #329

Sure, but once they do (outside of forum discussions like this) I just write them off. /nt LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #336

Not how scientifi method works edhopper Jan 2019 #322

"There's probably no God. Stop worrying and enjoy your life" Major Nikon Jan 2019 #12

I fainted while clutching my pearls. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #25

See, that is every bit as tiring Mariana Jan 2019 #47

Yeah, a relative whisper of dissent over a system of opposition by the megawatt Major Nikon Jan 2019 #59

It's as tiring as a county government council paying six figures MineralMan Jan 2019 #216

Agree Irishxs Jan 2019 #213

Considering the source... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #21

Yeah man but they like voice their opinions on the Internet. trotsky Jan 2019 #164

Gosh, you're so right...how could anyone even think those aren't... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #165

There's no such proselytizing by non-believers. MineralMan Jan 2019 #2

See reply 3. And proselytizing doesn't refer only to formal religions or organizations. It can highplainsdem Jan 2019 #5

Or proselytizing the Democratic Party? MineralMan Jan 2019 #9

No, I'm not suggesting non-believers shut up. I'm recommending empathy. highplainsdem Jan 2019 #14

"There's probably no God. Stop worrying and enjoy your life" Major Nikon Jan 2019 #17

That's not proselytizing at all. It's just a gentle suggestion. MineralMan Jan 2019 #28

Stop worrying and enjoy your life violetpastille Jan 2019 #63

Probably not a good idea to sell Prada to a migrant worker either Major Nikon Jan 2019 #75

Psst...Over Here...I Have Some GENUINE Pradha bags for sale. MineralMan Jan 2019 #77

We don't disagree. violetpastille Jan 2019 #78

True Major Nikon Jan 2019 #85

When I lived in Penang violetpastille Jan 2019 #132

Possible doesn't mean likely Major Nikon Jan 2019 #134

As Western Europe becomes multi-cultural violetpastille Jan 2019 #140

You think advising people to stop worrying about gods or damnation is "empathy neutral"? muriel_volestrangler Jan 2019 #127

I didn't know. violetpastille Jan 2019 #133

The amusing part is that the their website domain has expired LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #159

Maybe they were raptured and no-one noticed ... (nt) muriel_volestrangler Jan 2019 #183

Amazing how the original bus ad doesn't get anyone's ire here... trotsky Jan 2019 #223

Which, of course, is the problem in a nutshell. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #228

Even when the atheist one says "hey, that guy is probably wrong so don't worry!" trotsky Jan 2019 #232

Persecution, don't you know. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #236

BOTH SIDES!!!!!111eleventyone trotsky Jan 2019 #238

How are you recommending empathy? MineralMan Jan 2019 #19

Empathy? No, no empathy. Sympathy perhaps. bitterross Jan 2019 #131

Or proselytizing for civil rights Major Nikon Jan 2019 #16

Oh, the horror! Racists just hate that, don't they? MineralMan Jan 2019 #20

Sure, and there's lots of other words that can literally refer to the same thing Major Nikon Jan 2019 #15

I used the word for the same reason the writer of this Daily Beast article highplainsdem Jan 2019 #23

I'm not doubting that Major Nikon Jan 2019 #30

So basically we are ok if we just shut up. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #27

I'm glad I found my own path, years ago. However, I still glean from both sides. Siwsan Jan 2019 #6

+1,000,000 highplainsdem Jan 2019 #10

We're glad you did, too. MineralMan Jan 2019 #22

I have read some of your posts! Siwsan Jan 2019 #31

I didn't have to find or choose a path Major Nikon Jan 2019 #32

I did have religious beliefs, as a youngster. But, when I became an adult, I started reasoning MineralMan Jan 2019 #34

So you're saying that anyone with religious beliefs is illogical, childish, a disappointment to you? highplainsdem Jan 2019 #52

No. You're the one saying that I'm saying that. MineralMan Jan 2019 #53

You said very clearly that you threw off religious beliefs when you became an adult and could think highplainsdem Jan 2019 #56

.. MineralMan Jan 2019 #58

???? Not sure what you mean by that. But I wish you understood why your comments that adults who highplainsdem Jan 2019 #65

A frequent assertion. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #200

A theist may be childish or they may not... uriel1972 Jan 2019 #319

The poster is not the only one. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #201

That is not what he said. Mariana Jan 2019 #67

Thanks. I reread the post to which that was the reply. MineralMan Jan 2019 #69

So you're still saying that it's illogical to hold any religious belief, and you're disappointed in highplainsdem Jan 2019 #70

No. I said exactly what I meant. You are adding words to what I said. MineralMan Jan 2019 #72

Your statement made it clear that you believe reasoning, logical adults should throw off religious highplainsdem Jan 2019 #79

.. MineralMan Jan 2019 #80

Is atheism a religion? Didn't know that. Dream Girl Jan 2019 #39

Nope. It can't be. MineralMan Jan 2019 #40

You have a narrow view of religion. I believe in a higher power and I'm relaxing in bed this Dream Girl Jan 2019 #61

I have my own personal view of religion. MineralMan Jan 2019 #64

My views are fairly similar to yours. I went from a childhood in a major religion to agnostic, highplainsdem Jan 2019 #68

"Mr. Science"? Lulzd. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #135

Not really the place of science to explain metaphysical abstract concepts Major Nikon Jan 2019 #144

Bingo! Thank you for your wisdom so beautifully stated. cornball 24 Jan 2019 #139

Atheism is about acceptance. PassingFair Jan 2019 #340

Not a religion, but a belief system. highplainsdem Jan 2019 #62

Not even a system. MineralMan Jan 2019 #66

Whatabout those who proselytize against the proselytizers who proselytize against the proselytizers? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #7

Lost me. Duppers Jan 2019 #11

I don't like being "explained" to anyone. LakeArenal Jan 2019 #13

Especially the newly converted whether from religious to non-religious or non-r to religious. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #18

Non-belief isn't a belief Major Nikon Jan 2019 #24

Those who believe there is no God have a belief system. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #33

I believe I'll have another beer Major Nikon Jan 2019 #37

"and more generally includes" - meaning it does not have to include keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #44

"belief system" requires a set of beliefs at a minimum Major Nikon Jan 2019 #54

Those who don't believe there is any such thing as deities, though, MineralMan Jan 2019 #42

As MJ said: "You were born an atheist. That is the default condition. You did not have a belief syst keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #49

You're funny... MineralMan Jan 2019 #51

How could someone decide to be an atheist? Mariana Jan 2019 #71

" If the answer isn't Yes", (or it is), you have decided. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #73

Does this reasoning apply to everything one believes or disbelieves? Mariana Jan 2019 #83

Your rhetorical questions keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #84

You really should speak for yourself. Mariana Jan 2019 #93

"if I don't believe it's real. " keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #95

Or they can reject belief without believing anything Major Nikon Jan 2019 #117

What other outcomes are there? keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #118

I have already told you and prominently put it in the subject line Major Nikon Jan 2019 #119

Link? keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #121

Link Major Nikon Jan 2019 #124

So you didn't post it after all. OK keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #125

Link? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #128

False dilemma Major Nikon Jan 2019 #113

Kids seem to believe all sorts of things automatically marylandblue Jan 2019 #126

I agree we can decide to question beliefs and examine evidence. Mariana Jan 2019 #138

Did you choose not to believe in leprechauns? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #81

other imagined things? keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #82

Bertrand Russell... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #86

Thanks keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #122

Do you doubt anyone can come up with an infinite number of not real things? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #87

"conflating real things" keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #97

Nor did I mention them. You did. Major Nikon Jan 2019 #100

Link? keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #101

Really? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #102

Funny that they were not real things at the time. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #103

Yes, well evidence does that for ya Major Nikon Jan 2019 #106

OK keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #109

You seem to be saying you disbelieve that people went to the moon Mariana Jan 2019 #89

that anyone 'could go' to the moon keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #94

There "could be" a god. Mariana Jan 2019 #99

You believe that there could be. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #105

Why don't you answer any of my questions? nt. Mariana Jan 2019 #108

Your post 99 was not a question keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #111

"There "could be" a god." keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #116

Sure, there's also people who think the earth is flat Major Nikon Jan 2019 #104

"unfalsifiable claims" keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #107

Neither one of those is an unfalsifiable claim Major Nikon Jan 2019 #110

That was my point. Sorry you missed it. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #112

I've been telling you I've been missing your point all along Major Nikon Jan 2019 #114

You wrote... tonedevil Jan 2019 #136

If you believe you are an atheist, you believe something. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #137

Well sure. MarvinGardens Jan 2019 #141

What makes you think I belive... tonedevil Jan 2019 #152

Do you understand the difference between "innocent" and "not guilty"? LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #129

It shouldn't have to be explained more than once, at any rate. Mariana Jan 2019 #153

That may be true... uriel1972 Jan 2019 #316

Agreed Snackshack Jan 2019 #74

There will always be a label for those on the outside looking in Major Nikon Jan 2019 #76

We could make up words: :Anelvisist" or "Analienist" MineralMan Jan 2019 #92

oooh oooh uriel1972 Jan 2019 #320

Agree. I've seen that in my family, with both outspoken atheists and outspoken evangelicals who've highplainsdem Jan 2019 #26

The worst zipplewrath Jan 2019 #184

I think I'll go engage in my hobby of Not Collecting Stamps. Iggo Jan 2019 #29

Enjoy your hobbies! MineralMan Jan 2019 #35

. Iggo Jan 2019 #36

The nice thing about hobbies like that is that MineralMan Jan 2019 #38

And they're the easiest hobbies to master. Iggo Jan 2019 #43

Yes, indeed. MineralMan Jan 2019 #45

And we don't have to dust the trophies keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #57

But deciding the believer zipplewrath Jan 2019 #199

I make no claim. The believer makes the claim. Iggo Jan 2019 #224

As long as there is no counter claim zipplewrath Jan 2019 #225

I don't have a problem saying that some deity of some sort somewhere may exist. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #233

Well, we would zipplewrath Jan 2019 #235

I'd suggest that if quantum mechanics were easier for most, they'd gravitate that way. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #240

Magical thinking is quite common zipplewrath Jan 2019 #261

I've watched my share of postgame interviews. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #263

Belief in "momentum" zipplewrath Jan 2019 #271

I blame the announcers for that one. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #272

No counterclaim needs to be made. Iggo Jan 2019 #253

I agree 100%... ADX Jan 2019 #41

But Mama, that's where the fun is. Iggo Jan 2019 #46

Yeah, you've got a point there... ADX Jan 2019 #48

Thank you for understanding what I was saying. highplainsdem Jan 2019 #60

Thank you for saying what I was understanding... ADX Jan 2019 #120

It is not tiring to me. That is because I am not religious. You are I suppose so you do not want wasupaloopa Jan 2019 #50

The poster has given one extremely weak example Mariana Jan 2019 #98

I'm not religious. I haven't belonged to any religion since my teens. But I know people who are highplainsdem Jan 2019 #123

If someone believed in a superstition could wasupaloopa Jan 2019 #273

There are just different types of people where religion is concerned - who wudda thunk it? Freelancer Jan 2019 #55

Liberalism by definition it seems at first, can't be dogmatic or militant. Bretton Garcia Jan 2019 #88

Six and a half billion people on this planet, now, beleive in a Supreme Being, a Higher Power or a demosincebirth Jan 2019 #90

And that majority likes to crush the atheist minority. Bretton Garcia Jan 2019 #115

Why does something you don't believe in bother you so much? demosincebirth Jan 2019 #143

And yet many Catholics do impose their views on others Major Nikon Jan 2019 #146

You paint with a wide brush. Old saying, "point a demosincebirth Jan 2019 #151

I wonder, would you say that to a member Mariana Jan 2019 #155

I have a very large family, 99% Catholic, three gay and all liberal, but not in all sense. demosincebirth Jan 2019 #280

The majority of Catholics in this country voted for Trump in 2016. Mariana Jan 2019 #284

Had I said all Catholics, you might have something Major Nikon Jan 2019 #162

Religion is very real, and it has an effect on all our lives. Mariana Jan 2019 #154

What makes you say that? Eko Jan 2019 #130

You know what I mean demosincebirth Jan 2019 #142

It sounds like what you mean is religion has been around since humans have Major Nikon Jan 2019 #145

Depends on what you mean by religion marylandblue Jan 2019 #175

The earliest evidence is burial rituals Major Nikon Jan 2019 #180

Yes burial rituals, but also modern hunter gatherer societies provide evidence marylandblue Jan 2019 #187

I never mentioned religion demosincebirth Jan 2019 #281

Whatever you want to call it Major Nikon Jan 2019 #282

Yes I do. Eko Jan 2019 #148

Pretty clear what you mean. trotsky Jan 2019 #163

Interesting post, and I appreeciate what I believe are your intentios. Regarding the difference c-rational Jan 2019 #96

Maybe they are just talking to themselves in a form of self persuasion. littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #147

You are right. Eko Jan 2019 #149

I am not sure what your point is but my reference does not littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #150

My point is that out of "humbleness" Eko Jan 2019 #156

Twisted. How are being humble and empathetic counterintuitive? littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #157

Judging you? Eko Jan 2019 #158

I guess some people will just never get it. littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #161

You said that in humbleness, right? Mariana Jan 2019 #169

With empathy also. Eko Jan 2019 #244

Totally. littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #270

#notallwhitepeople? Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #160

????????????????? highplainsdem Jan 2019 #168

Confused? Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #170

No, I post question marks as an emoji for certainty. highplainsdem Jan 2019 #172

Good. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #173

Making a sandwich will add just about as much to this discussion as a deliberately cryptic remark. highplainsdem Jan 2019 #174

I will assure you everyone who needs to know what it means knows what it means. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #176

Oh, it's a forum in-joke for people who agree with you. How helpful to any discussion in a public highplainsdem Jan 2019 #178

You're half right. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #188

I think I get where you are coming from. MarvinGardens Jan 2019 #166

Time to dust off this old classic again... trotsky Jan 2019 #167

That old classic doesn't apply to my OP, since I made it very clear I wasn't highplainsdem Jan 2019 #171

Great post... ADX Jan 2019 #179

You are absolutely right. trotsky Jan 2019 #193

No one should engage anyone who doesn't want to be engaged... ADX Jan 2019 #217

Uh, by being here in this open forum where all viewpoints are welcome, you are asking to be engaged. trotsky Jan 2019 #222

What the actual fuck's going on here is that in your zeal to attempt to prove some kind of point... ADX Jan 2019 #226

Thanks for the condescension! The OP compares atheists speaking negative opinions about religion... trotsky Jan 2019 #229

Condescension? Seriously? LMAO. This from someone who literally posted a dripping sarcasm smiley... ADX Jan 2019 #250

So ironic. trotsky Jan 2019 #252

First off my "rules" aren't universal, they're my opinions... ADX Jan 2019 #254

Oh OK. Got it. "Rules for thee, not for me." trotsky Jan 2019 #255

Thanks, Mr. Kettle! ADX Jan 2019 #256

Any time, Mr. Pot. trotsky Jan 2019 #259

Nope, I didn't forget... ADX Jan 2019 #264

Oh dear. trotsky Jan 2019 #266

Oh dear... ADX Jan 2019 #269

Apparently you didn't understand what that saying means. trotsky Jan 2019 #275

Post removed Post removed Jan 2019 #289

"I hope you get the help you need"?? trotsky Jan 2019 #290

Who said anything about mental illness? ADX Jan 2019 #291

Doubling down on the abuse. An interesting tactic. trotsky Jan 2019 #292

Uh huh. trotsky Jan 2019 #192

LOL highplainsdem Jan 2019 #194

For real, take a good look at what you've posted. trotsky Jan 2019 #196

No, that excerpt was posted as an example of the words "proselytize" and "evangelize" being used highplainsdem Jan 2019 #203

And the "tone" of saying "we're here" is the same as that of the TV preacher? trotsky Jan 2019 #221

Again: I have nothing against atheists, and there's nothing wrong with making a case for your highplainsdem Jan 2019 #227

But that's exactly what your OP said. trotsky Jan 2019 #230

Of course they are identical, Trotsky! Mariana Jan 2019 #231

Two sides of the same coin, CLEARLY!! trotsky Jan 2019 #234

Do you agree with everything that Obama, Biden and Clinton have done? Eko Jan 2019 #246

Far better if this "classic" had some relevance. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #274

You have convinced yourself. trotsky Jan 2019 #276

I would argue that genuine proselytizing by atheists is wrong, but rare LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #177

I defer to the master...Mr. Carlin, take it away... Moostache Jan 2019 #181

Everything before the 'but' is... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #195

Yeah LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #257

Recommended. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #202

This message was self-deleted by its author Kurt V. Jan 2019 #251

"I have nothing against people who don't believe in conservatism, but people who proselytize... trotsky Jan 2019 #279

Ouch dude... NeoGreen Jan 2019 #283

Well, I'm clearly Sam Elliott. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2019 #293

Sweet essay. Crutchez_CuiBono Jan 2019 #328