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caraher

(6,308 posts)
22. Physics PhD here - can't work.
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 01:24 AM
Dec 2023

There are several ways to pick this apart. We're dealing with a system that I'll conceptualize as having three main parts: the slug, the gun barrel, and the armored astronaut. (I won't worry about, say, the gases that result from firing the gun, as the analysis would be no different for a railgun or even a spring-loaded slug launcher.)

Let's begin our analysis from the moment the slug first reaches its top speed but before it hits the curved barrel. We'll also use the center of mass reference frame and assume everything was at rest in this frame before we fired the gun. We'll also do a 1-D analysis of the problem (we could replace the curved barrel with a "slug reflector" while maintaining the basic physics of the proposal; modeling the curve of the barrel isn't important). At this moment, if the initial momentum of astronaut (plus gun; this won't work if the astronaut isn't holding the gun!) is +p, the momentum of the bullet is -p.

Why does the slug change directions 180 degrees? Because of the force the barrel exerts on the slug. Newton's 3rd Law of Motion says that this is equal in magnitude to the force the bullet exerts on the barrel, and opposite in direction.

The physics concept that relates force and change in momentum is called "impulse" and it's basically the force multiplied by the time during which the force acts. Let's assume our barrel does its job perfectly and doesn't slow the slug at all as it slings it back toward our astronaut. In doing so, the barrel imparts an impulse of +2p to the bullet, so its final momentum is the initial momentum +p plus the impulse of -2p for a final momentum of -p for the bullet as it leaves the barrel, but before it hits our astronaut.

Thanks to Newton's 3rd Law, the impulse imparted during this process to the gun barrel (and therefore astronaut) by the slug is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the impulse the slug imparted to the barrel. So the astronaut begins with momentum +p, experiences an impulse of -2p, and therefore winds up with a final momentum of -p.

So the effect of the ideal curved barrel is that both slug and astronaut simply reverse speed and direction!

From here, the best-case scenario is the slug bouncing off the astronaut in a perfectly elastic collision. In that case, the bullet simply changes direction without slowing, giving the slug a momentum of -p. The astronaut's suit imparted an impulse of -2p to the slug, therefore the slug imparts an impulse of +2p to the astronaut. But before this collision the astronaut had a momentum of -p, so the astronaut's new momentum is -p +2p = +p. Which is exactly what it would have been had the barrel never been curved.

The worst case, BTW, at this last step, is for the slug to simply stick to the spacesuit. The bullet then experiences an impulse of -p, the astronaut experiences an impulse of +p, and both wind up at rest again.

Basically the whole scheme is a version of trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Only a net external force can cause a change in the momentum of a system. Because the reversal of direction of the slug (which indeed requires no external energy source) is effected by the gun barrel, the analysis needs to consider the fact that the gun also imparts momentum to the astronaut (by the mechanism of holding it). Only by neglecting this interaction can you obtain the magic result of the slug imparting still more momentum to the astronaut by hitting her.

Finally... you do know that ChatGPT knows zero physics, right? So-called AI actually can help spot things like typos in computer code mainly because there are huge sets of examples to draw from in their training sets. But it does so by a kind of pattern matching. It's not out of the question for a more intelligent form of AI to come along that can actually recognize a certain context calls for specific models of physics and apply those in a consistent way, but the tools we can play with today fall very far short of that. Doing this kind of physics by ChatGPT is strictly for entertainment value, not valid physical insight.

AI's reply mikelewis Dec 2023 #1
The reason it mentioned Saturn... mikelewis Dec 2023 #4
The Math mikelewis Dec 2023 #2
Follow up Question... Speed in mph over multiple reloads? mikelewis Dec 2023 #7
Your "math" is unreadable. You can do actual formatting or images. Until then, it's unusable. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #63
I apologize for that but if you copy and paste the things I said into AI it will fix that for you... mikelewis Dec 2023 #67
No Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #69
Why this is inline with physics mikelewis Dec 2023 #3
System Design and Equation from the book mikelewis Dec 2023 #5
reminds me of project orion AllaN01Bear Dec 2023 #6
That one actually sounds more terrifying LOL! Glad that got scrubbed... this is totally different mikelewis Dec 2023 #10
Is this bullet/slug a physical item, with form and substance? oldfart73 Dec 2023 #8
Yes, you would ideally use a giant magnet... something weighing about 50 lbs... accelerated to about 2500 m/s... mikelewis Dec 2023 #11
Then it would require a mechanism to catch it and reposition it for reuse. oldfart73 Dec 2023 #13
Absolutely... this design is an engineering nightmare... mikelewis Dec 2023 #16
However... you could catch it in another railgun... mikelewis Dec 2023 #17
It takes energy to change the direction of the slugs. indigoth Dec 2023 #9
That isn't quite correct... Try this... mikelewis Dec 2023 #12
Nope indigoth Dec 2023 #18
Sorry... that's not remotely correct mikelewis Dec 2023 #19
No. It doesn't. indigoth Dec 2023 #25
You are exactly right... there is no angular momentum when it's shot... mikelewis Dec 2023 #28
Perhaps the final nail in the coffin indigoth Dec 2023 #29
Really? So let's prove this mathematically... mikelewis Dec 2023 #30
Oh please indigoth Dec 2023 #37
Wonderful... do the math then... this is all basic stuff... mikelewis Dec 2023 #38
Starting at rest indigoth Dec 2023 #39
Where's the math? mikelewis Dec 2023 #40
I did make zero equal zero indigoth Dec 2023 #41
Weak... no proof nonsense mikelewis Dec 2023 #42
Well then, indigoth Dec 2023 #43
No... I'm talking to you... mikelewis Dec 2023 #44
And to your point about NASA. mikelewis Dec 2023 #45
The short (and absolutely correct) answer is indigoth Dec 2023 #46
Well... why not really take a look at what I am saying before you continue on that stance... mikelewis Dec 2023 #47
This is correct relayerbob Dec 2023 #57
Wrong perspective. To inject angular momentum into bullet, it sucks linear momentum Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #64
And as a backup... the same explanation AI style mikelewis Dec 2023 #20
One important note... AI gets the answer wrong here... and I fix it. mikelewis Dec 2023 #21
Your scheme is not fully thought out. It fails Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #61
IMHO The bullets will never hit you Cheezoholic Dec 2023 #14
Well... the masses are different... mikelewis Dec 2023 #15
Physics PhD here - can't work. caraher Dec 2023 #22
Ok... you are correct... this is a poor design... let's fix that... mikelewis Dec 2023 #23
Here's My and AI's physics.... please apply real physics and fix this please... mikelewis Dec 2023 #24
And here's the final velocity... please help me make that Zero 0 mikelewis Dec 2023 #26
rec ed as something worth thinking about, but rampartc Dec 2023 #27
According to the limited physics I understand... that momentum is conserved once it begins it's rotation... mikelewis Dec 2023 #31
I ask AI to review that statement... this is the response... mikelewis Dec 2023 #32
I accentuate this effect by cutting the radius... mikelewis Dec 2023 #33
An explanation as to why this works... mikelewis Dec 2023 #34
Nice thought experiment but. EmeraldCoaster Dec 2023 #35
Saying it doesn't prove it mikelewis Dec 2023 #36
Your math is unreadable. You haven't proven anything. . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #65
I am not proving anything. I am asking... mikelewis Dec 2023 #68
Force is not "absorbed" Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #70
If you aren't proving anything, why the in-your-face belligerence commanding repliers to prove things? Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #71
Why don't actual rocket scientists use this propulsion system? Ptah Dec 2023 #48
We don't know if it works or not... mikelewis Dec 2023 #50
I think I found a demonstration of your model. Ptah Dec 2023 #52
Clearly you didn't read any of this... mikelewis Dec 2023 #55
Will you provide a better illustration of your proposal? Ptah Dec 2023 #56
One hears these sort of things, and one doesn't want to believe it. NNadir Dec 2023 #49
Ok... there is no claim that this is perpetual motion... there are power supplies and limits to the length of runtime... mikelewis Dec 2023 #51
I would suggest taking a physics course. NNadir Dec 2023 #53
Well... your mathematical proofs will be fine... mikelewis Dec 2023 #54
Whatever. NNadir Dec 2023 #59
DU can do without personal slams like you writing "running your mouth to feel better". . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #62
Only works if you violate several laws of physics relayerbob Dec 2023 #58
This thread is a great example on how AI chats can create utter nonsense and make it look good. unblock Dec 2023 #60
Ahead full impulse, Mr. Sulu DoBW Dec 2023 #66
Let's make this real simple... mikelewis Dec 2023 #72
AI's response mikelewis Dec 2023 #73
Please correct the AI mistakes here... mikelewis Dec 2023 #74
Why argue with you? We explain things but then you get belligerent Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2023 #75
Post removed Post removed Dec 2023 #76
Please take a course in physics! CloudWatcher Dec 2023 #77
What exactly is your educational background, anyway? NickB79 Dec 2023 #78
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