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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
75. Where is the FATHER's side of this argument??? Where is the appeal?
Wed Sep 16, 2015, 09:09 AM
Sep 2015

Domestic Relations court issue order for counseling all the time. The courts have found out the best are the ones BOTH parents agree to. The problem is when such parents do not agree, then the court has to decide which counselor the couple should go to. The Courts options are limited often to different counselors picked by both sides or a third party if it is clear both side suggestions are unworkable for the other side.

Domestic Relations Courts have found such counseling as a way to minimize conflict in child custody cases, thus the Courts will ORDER parties to attend counseling session. If someone dislikes the session or the counselor, they can always ask the court for a different counselor, but that cost will be put on the party that asked for it AND it must be completed within roughly the time period of the Court Order counseling (And the duty of finding such a counselor will be on the party asking for a different counselor).

The woman's refusal to go to the counseling session is like Kim Davis refusal to issue marriage licenses, both disobeyed DIRECT COURT ORDERS. The proper procedure is to APPEAL such orders NOT to disobey them. The Courts will uphold any sanction of any judge who issue a Court Order that was disobeyed, even if the order was later found to be unconstitutional or illegal (You must obey Court Orders, if you believe they are illegal or unconstitutional you appeal such orders, you do NOT disobey them).

The Classic case is the Case of Martin Luther King in Birmingham Alabama. He was court orders NOT to attend a Civil Rights Rally, he attended the Rally anyway and was arrested for disobeying the Court Order. He had also appealed that Court Order and that Order had been dismissed as unconstitutional on appeal, but that was AFTER he had disobeyed the Court Order and sentenced to Jail for disobeying the Court Order. Martin Luther King's sentence for disobeying a court order (that had been held to be unconstitutional) was UPHELD on appeal up to and including the US Supreme Court. In that set of appeals, the issue was NOT the Court Order itself, but the failure to obey it. The courts will punish anyone who disobeys an order, even if the order is illegal. The Courts position is you should APPEAL the court order NOT disobey it.

What this woman should have done was file a motion with the trial judge that the sessions were harmful and violating her first amendment rights of freedom of religion and if that failed, to appeal that decision. That is the proper procedure and most trial judges do NOT want to be reversed on appeal will consider providing a different counselor, if the woman would suggested one. Refusing to go to the COURT ORDER session was NOT an option, but asking the court to appoint someone else was.

Sorry, the more I look into this case, this woman took it on herself to DISOBEY a court order and then was shocked when the Judge did what a Judge can do when someone disobeys his orders, took her kids away. The Woman DID not tell the Judge that the sessions were NOT working out for she was uncomfortable with them. The Woman did not suggest another counselor. Instead the woman refused to go till the Judge took her kids away. Then the woman did finish the sessions, again NOT asking the Judge to appoint someone else and taped them to show their religious content. I suspect she wanted to show the Judge the Religious nature of the Counseling, but the Judge then said what alternatives the woman was offering, she was silent. The Woman did not really want to go to ANY counseling sessions and used religion as a prop to attack being ordered to go to such sessions.

Sorry, my experience as a practicing Domestic Relations Lawyer is this has NOTHING to do with religion but someone who disliked the idea of having to go to counseling sessions in the first place (and paying for them). This was confirmed when the woman objected to going to the public library for such sessions (I have had some counselors do this, for it saves them the cost of setting up an office or renting a motel room for the session).

Now, doing this at the library would have been grounds to ask for another counselor but again NOT asked for, I suspect for all of the other counselors charged more for their services. I suspect the woman did NOT want to pay more then what this Counselor was charging but then complained when it included religion. You get what you are willing to pay for and if you want a discounted service be prepared for any costs involved.

Now, for the argument, why have this counselor on any list of counselors? She is probably the chearpest and thus most popular on the list. No one is being forced to go to this counselor unless they select her personally. I suspect the counselor was selected by both sides attorneys for this counselor is the cheapest on the list. I suspect this woman's attorney told her to go to the 10 sessions and get it over with. The Judge issued his ordered based on what both sides had agreed to. Thus this woman "picked" this counselor and hated having to go to such sessions and picked apart anything the counselor suggested that her attorney told her was NOT essential to the sessions (Thus we hear of Religion and use of the Public Library but NOT how to handle problems that comes up with children being divided between two children).

Sorry, based on my experiences I suspect the problem is this woman did not like going to ANY counseling sessions and just attack the parts that she believed would get her good press. She did NOT take the option of filing an appeal or offering some other counselor, instead complained to the ACLU and the local news. I am sorry, this woman had options but refused to take them for I suspect her attorney told her go to the sessions, get it done and it be over with. I suspect her attorney told her if she disliked this counselor, go to someone else but be prepared to pay their higher fees, fees she objected to paying for she did not believe she needed this counseling.

What a nightmere me b zola Sep 2015 #1
I don't believe a challenge to counseling at AA has made it to SCOTUS yet. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #3
AA says your higher power can be a toilet seat, but you have to accept there is a "higher power" peacebird Sep 2015 #43
It's wrong to tell an atheist they have to accept any higher power. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #50
I agree totally with you, that said, the 'excuse' I have heard from AAers is youndon't have to peacebird Sep 2015 #52
It is weird. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #54
It's wrong to tell any alcoholic that Major Nikon Sep 2015 #167
An atheist acquaintance of mine dealt with that one quite nicely Warpy Sep 2015 #181
The higher power thing allows for each person to have jwirr Sep 2015 #67
Well that is certainly better! peacebird Sep 2015 #74
My objection to court order participation is that it jwirr Sep 2015 #76
The higher power thing allows for.... AlbertCat Sep 2015 #84
What wording would you use is you knew that you were jwirr Sep 2015 #88
dealing with a mixture of beliefs? AlbertCat Sep 2015 #92
If I ever had to go into AA I'd pick Tinkerbell passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #169
Exactly... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #141
accept there is a "higher power" AlbertCat Sep 2015 #81
And as I said that is why I object to court ordered jwirr Sep 2015 #89
the person attending has to want to quit. AlbertCat Sep 2015 #104
Yes, I agree with everything you have just said. I jwirr Sep 2015 #105
"there were folks who are obviously addicted to going to these meetings" awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #142
Many AA members are heavy smokers. Having to go outside in most meeting venues maddiemom Sep 2015 #127
Yeah. "God as we understand Him" actually. maddiemom Sep 2015 #125
Yep busterbrown Sep 2015 #147
Actually Old Codger Sep 2015 #184
Be careful please.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #146
And like I said, many atheists reject the idea of a higher power. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #148
Agree 100%.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #149
Atheists by the way are welcome in AA.. AlbertCat Sep 2015 #175
You mean like AA? Atman Sep 2015 #5
LOL, yeah, like AA me b zola Sep 2015 #9
What if my higher power is Pinot Noir? progressoid Sep 2015 #38
Mine is craft beer, but i like the way you think! peacebird Sep 2015 #53
Yeah! progressoid Sep 2015 #123
spelling nazi navarth Sep 2015 #154
Heh. progressoid Sep 2015 #157
What is objectionable about AA/NA is the endless proselytization about a prayer-answering progree Sep 2015 #55
"6 out of 6 of the highest courts...have found A.A. to be religious in nature" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #61
I got out of it simply by refusing to attend and wearing them down. Atman Sep 2015 #122
The State and area where the Group is located has a lot to do busterbrown Sep 2015 #150
By the way Judges send people to aa because of the results.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #153
No, they don't. Atman Sep 2015 #158
Wrong.. The Only Requirement Is a Desire To Stop Drinking.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #159
Wrong. You are simply wrong. Atman Sep 2015 #160
Boy! Are you up the wrong creek. busterbrown Sep 2015 #164
You are obviously a friend of Bill. Atman Sep 2015 #166
religion as punishment passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #170
War on Christians? druidity33 Sep 2015 #2
Right? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #4
That's it! Real persecution as opposed to the fake crap the Kentucky clerk claims. Dustlawyer Sep 2015 #23
Someone should set up a go fund me account for this mom. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #24
Forced religion is here folks. retrowire Sep 2015 #6
Yes it is. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #7
wow retrowire Sep 2015 #8
It's in the US Constitution: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #11
apparently it's a phrase and interpretation. retrowire Sep 2015 #27
One of my favorite quotes, also. maddiemom Sep 2015 #64
me? no sarcasm retrowire Sep 2015 #93
That's not fascism Auggie Sep 2015 #45
I think it's a form of fascism for any citizen to be given a choice mountain grammy Sep 2015 #57
Needs to be widespread ideology supported by national and local government with accompanying law Auggie Sep 2015 #98
I'm afraid it's not that isolated. mountain grammy Sep 2015 #101
oh, hmmm food for thought! n/t retrowire Sep 2015 #65
wow LittleGirl Sep 2015 #10
Nah, she's a Christian. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #13
I agree LittleGirl Sep 2015 #15
You got it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #16
hypocrites LittleGirl Sep 2015 #40
Exactly. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #42
It's appalling. They're the Christian Taliban. Can you just imagine PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #12
But that's DIFFERENT. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #14
How much more proof do we need... gregcrawford Sep 2015 #17
I agree 100%. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #19
{{shudder}} flygal Sep 2015 #18
I worked for one who made me send printed bible verses with the customers' invoices. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #20
I got Lasik from a doctor who prayed before he started lasering my eyeball. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #95
I'd like to see this go to SCOTUS RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #21
She endured it to get her kids back. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #22
No religion is just not making a choice Lordquinton Sep 2015 #126
Why can't I choose RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #138
Poor woman has to surround herself with these wackos! wolfie001 Sep 2015 #25
Can you imagine? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #26
What the ever-loving fuck! ('nuff said) mak3cats Sep 2015 #28
. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #29
Another one for the Talibornagain file.... blackspade Sep 2015 #30
And they think Kim Davis is a victim. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #31
No doubt. blackspade Sep 2015 #32
And yet, there are some on DU who think Atheists face little to no persecution... LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #33
Such a cruel thing to do to a mother trying to get her kids back. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #34
"Christian Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Atheist Counseling" KansDem Sep 2015 #35
Or "Christian Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Muslim Counseling" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #37
Typically, you don't need "counseling" if you're an atheist. They aren't the troubled ones. n/t jtuck004 Sep 2015 #41
So odd how so many self-described "Christians" raouldukelives Sep 2015 #36
They pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to follow. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #39
And it's usually the hateful parts. Thav Sep 2015 #49
Well most atheists know all Christians aren't like that counselor. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #51
True, but it makes it much easier to spot a real one whn you see one. nt raouldukelives Sep 2015 #56
Please don't use the No True Scotsman fallacy. Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2015 #161
Well, sure. Just like anyone I suppose. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #187
The logical statement would be Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2015 #188
It is insanity to hear them hop from book to book. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #189
This "counselor" is a piece of work. progressoid Sep 2015 #44
Thanks! I couldn't get the video to embed in the op. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #47
So the Court (government) orders counseling mountain grammy Sep 2015 #62
Christian fascism. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #46
When I read the headline I thought it would be Texas. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #48
So if the higher power is Punx Sep 2015 #58
You mean in AA? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #59
Yes, like A.A. -- all 6 of the highest courts have found it to be religious, for quite obvious progree Sep 2015 #60
Thank you, that deserves its own op in this group. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #63
Thanks. I'll work on a stand-alone OP version progree Sep 2015 #71
What I was trying to point out Punx Sep 2015 #69
Good point about being a user of Cannabis and a follower of the Church of C. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #72
Where is the ACLU? If ever there was a case of the jwirr Sep 2015 #66
She got her kids back but hopefully she sues. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #68
Thanks for the correction. Glad she got the kids back. jwirr Sep 2015 #70
Yes, most counselors who are religious don't cross that line. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #73
"most counselors who are religious don't cross that line" Lordquinton Sep 2015 #128
Sue for What? She disobeyed a COURT ORDER. happyslug Sep 2015 #80
From the ACLU: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #85
The ACLU rarely gets involved in Child custody cases. happyslug Sep 2015 #100
You're telling me what this woman "should have done" based on what you don't know? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #103
The Report stated the Judge took away the Children, that could only be be in contempt happyslug Sep 2015 #108
So you're just speculating that she was a bitter ex and used this as an excuse to get out of it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #109
Did you even read the story, or watch the video? passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #176
An ACLU case would not be a child custody case, it would be a violation of her civil liberties Dont call me Shirley Sep 2015 #163
It is? Courts do this all the time... happyslug Sep 2015 #77
You suspect. The article stated that the court selected jwirr Sep 2015 #82
I knew someone would be along to blame the mom. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #87
To may variables for the Court to have selected the Counseling service happyslug Sep 2015 #114
Evidence - you are still suspecting. When a judge directs jwirr Sep 2015 #117
AA OPPOSES such Court Orders happyslug Sep 2015 #120
Baloney. A.A. actively facilitates coerced attendance progree Sep 2015 #143
I worked in the court system in my state for several years, and that's not at all how it worked EvolveOrConvolve Sep 2015 #178
I suspect what you are describing is true of some judges and some jurisdictions progree Sep 2015 #83
No passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #177
Courts do NOT take phone calls, they want a written petition. happyslug Sep 2015 #182
When they didn't reply to her, she did take it back to court passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #183
Where is the FATHER's side of this argument??? Where is the appeal? happyslug Sep 2015 #75
Oh please. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #79
My experience is the MOTHER SELECTED HER COUNSELOR happyslug Sep 2015 #91
Your experience doesn't count for jack when you use it to blame the mother without evidence. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #94
I do NOT see anything that the Court ORDER religious teaching, happyslug Sep 2015 #106
Do you have a problem with an atheist being forced to write an essay titled "Who is God to me?" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #107
As I said before that was her choice happyslug Sep 2015 #110
It she refused to comply she would have lost her kids, she was forced to write it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #111
She always had the right to get her counseling done by someone else. happyslug Sep 2015 #144
I pity your clients if you base your judgment on the suspicion that women are liars. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #151
Wow, you have said that she "selected" this counselor at least ten times, Curmudgeoness Sep 2015 #121
a fictional character invented by primitive pre-scientific people to explain things like lightning progree Sep 2015 #112
I don't think they'd like what I'd write either. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #113
Yup. Church and State Magazine is full of cases like this. (au.org) progree Sep 2015 #115
I don't know what I'd do if I was ordered to AA. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #116
Ahh, the Marines. Well you asked for this... <g> progree Sep 2015 #118
Ugh. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #119
How did we get on the AA? happyslug Sep 2015 #124
Number one - A.A. facilitates coerced attendance. Two: Most courts in Minnesota do progree Sep 2015 #140
I didn't have any choice in the matter. onager Sep 2015 #152
Illegal orders should always be disobeyed Lordquinton Sep 2015 #129
+1 beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #130
I haven't seen such leaps of logic Since Lordquinton Sep 2015 #133
They do remind me of some other folks now that you mention it... beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #135
The husband and children have been reduced to barely a mention Lordquinton Sep 2015 #136
It was part of her plan to... to ... what was it she wanted to do again? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #137
If you break the law, be prepared to take the consequences, and that includes Court Orders... happyslug Sep 2015 #139
How do you know she had the option and chose to disobey the order instead? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #145
If you break the law be prepared to pay the consequences. Agree so far. But you don't have to like rhett o rick Sep 2015 #168
And that includes the judge. The judge broke the law by forcing an atheist to pray. jeff47 Sep 2015 #171
"The meaning in my life is to know..." AlbertCat Sep 2015 #78
Just imagine the kind of counseling she did when she worked for that radical anti-choice group. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #90
This story disgusts me. The total disregard of separation of church and state by the courts valerief Sep 2015 #86
Agreed. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #97
Bingo! valerief Sep 2015 #134
Chilling. This forced religious nuttery has got to stop. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #96
The mother was forced to write an essay "Who is God to me?". beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #99
Yeah, Huckabee would personally march into the counseling place Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #102
Judges keep getting... KyleMcShades Sep 2015 #131
I agree. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #132
Religion does not trump secular law. V0ltairesGh0st Sep 2015 #155
Hear hear! beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #156
They actually have an "alternative" swearing-in. jeff47 Sep 2015 #172
This isn't how you win converts Babel_17 Sep 2015 #162
It sure does make enemies. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #173
Look for the money trail between the judge and the "counselor." EEO Sep 2015 #165
Both should be out of jobs. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #174
Same here. I have been an atheist for nearly two decades now, and these things really piss me off. EEO Sep 2015 #179
Arrogance and force are not Christian. senz Sep 2015 #180
Obnoxious and infuriating. Yes, indeed. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #185
My "What-does-God-mean-to-you" homework: DetlefK Sep 2015 #186
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