Atheists & Agnostics

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)

161. Please don't use the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Wed Sep 16, 2015, 06:44 PM

Sep 2015

When referring to "true Christians".

Christians are self-identifying.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

QUOTE:An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

189 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Atheist Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Christian Counseling [View all] beam me up scottie Sep 2015 OP

What a nightmere me b zola Sep 2015 #1

I don't believe a challenge to counseling at AA has made it to SCOTUS yet. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #3

AA says your higher power can be a toilet seat, but you have to accept there is a "higher power" peacebird Sep 2015 #43

It's wrong to tell an atheist they have to accept any higher power. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #50

I agree totally with you, that said, the 'excuse' I have heard from AAers is youndon't have to peacebird Sep 2015 #52

It is weird. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #54

It's wrong to tell any alcoholic that Major Nikon Sep 2015 #167

An atheist acquaintance of mine dealt with that one quite nicely Warpy Sep 2015 #181

The higher power thing allows for each person to have jwirr Sep 2015 #67

Well that is certainly better! peacebird Sep 2015 #74

My objection to court order participation is that it jwirr Sep 2015 #76

The higher power thing allows for.... AlbertCat Sep 2015 #84

What wording would you use is you knew that you were jwirr Sep 2015 #88

dealing with a mixture of beliefs? AlbertCat Sep 2015 #92

If I ever had to go into AA I'd pick Tinkerbell passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #169

Exactly... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #141

accept there is a "higher power" AlbertCat Sep 2015 #81

And as I said that is why I object to court ordered jwirr Sep 2015 #89

the person attending has to want to quit. AlbertCat Sep 2015 #104

Yes, I agree with everything you have just said. I jwirr Sep 2015 #105

"there were folks who are obviously addicted to going to these meetings" awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #142

Many AA members are heavy smokers. Having to go outside in most meeting venues maddiemom Sep 2015 #127

Yeah. "God as we understand Him" actually. maddiemom Sep 2015 #125

Yep busterbrown Sep 2015 #147

Actually Old Codger Sep 2015 #184

Be careful please.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #146

And like I said, many atheists reject the idea of a higher power. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #148

Agree 100%.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #149

Atheists by the way are welcome in AA.. AlbertCat Sep 2015 #175

You mean like AA? Atman Sep 2015 #5

LOL, yeah, like AA me b zola Sep 2015 #9

What if my higher power is Pinot Noir? progressoid Sep 2015 #38

Mine is craft beer, but i like the way you think! peacebird Sep 2015 #53

Yeah! progressoid Sep 2015 #123

spelling nazi navarth Sep 2015 #154

Heh. progressoid Sep 2015 #157

What is objectionable about AA/NA is the endless proselytization about a prayer-answering progree Sep 2015 #55

"6 out of 6 of the highest courts...have found A.A. to be religious in nature" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #61

I got out of it simply by refusing to attend and wearing them down. Atman Sep 2015 #122

The State and area where the Group is located has a lot to do busterbrown Sep 2015 #150

By the way Judges send people to aa because of the results.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #153

No, they don't. Atman Sep 2015 #158

Wrong.. The Only Requirement Is a Desire To Stop Drinking.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #159

Wrong. You are simply wrong. Atman Sep 2015 #160

Boy! Are you up the wrong creek. busterbrown Sep 2015 #164

You are obviously a friend of Bill. Atman Sep 2015 #166

religion as punishment passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #170

War on Christians? druidity33 Sep 2015 #2

Right? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #4

That's it! Real persecution as opposed to the fake crap the Kentucky clerk claims. Dustlawyer Sep 2015 #23

Someone should set up a go fund me account for this mom. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #24

Forced religion is here folks. retrowire Sep 2015 #6

Yes it is. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #7

wow retrowire Sep 2015 #8

It's in the US Constitution: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #11

apparently it's a phrase and interpretation. retrowire Sep 2015 #27

One of my favorite quotes, also. maddiemom Sep 2015 #64

me? no sarcasm retrowire Sep 2015 #93

That's not fascism Auggie Sep 2015 #45

I think it's a form of fascism for any citizen to be given a choice mountain grammy Sep 2015 #57

Needs to be widespread ideology supported by national and local government with accompanying law Auggie Sep 2015 #98

I'm afraid it's not that isolated. mountain grammy Sep 2015 #101

oh, hmmm food for thought! n/t retrowire Sep 2015 #65

wow LittleGirl Sep 2015 #10

Nah, she's a Christian. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #13

I agree LittleGirl Sep 2015 #15

You got it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #16

hypocrites LittleGirl Sep 2015 #40

Exactly. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #42

It's appalling. They're the Christian Taliban. Can you just imagine PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #12

But that's DIFFERENT. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #14

How much more proof do we need... gregcrawford Sep 2015 #17

I agree 100%. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #19

{{shudder}} flygal Sep 2015 #18

I worked for one who made me send printed bible verses with the customers' invoices. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #20

I got Lasik from a doctor who prayed before he started lasering my eyeball. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #95

I'd like to see this go to SCOTUS RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #21

She endured it to get her kids back. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #22

No religion is just not making a choice Lordquinton Sep 2015 #126

Why can't I choose RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #138

Poor woman has to surround herself with these wackos! wolfie001 Sep 2015 #25

Can you imagine? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #26

What the ever-loving fuck! ('nuff said) mak3cats Sep 2015 #28

. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #29

Another one for the Talibornagain file.... blackspade Sep 2015 #30

And they think Kim Davis is a victim. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #31

No doubt. blackspade Sep 2015 #32

And yet, there are some on DU who think Atheists face little to no persecution... LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #33

Such a cruel thing to do to a mother trying to get her kids back. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #34

"Christian Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Atheist Counseling" KansDem Sep 2015 #35

Or "Christian Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Muslim Counseling" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #37

Typically, you don't need "counseling" if you're an atheist. They aren't the troubled ones. n/t jtuck004 Sep 2015 #41

So odd how so many self-described "Christians" raouldukelives Sep 2015 #36

They pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to follow. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #39

And it's usually the hateful parts. Thav Sep 2015 #49

Well most atheists know all Christians aren't like that counselor. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #51

True, but it makes it much easier to spot a real one whn you see one. nt raouldukelives Sep 2015 #56

Please don't use the No True Scotsman fallacy. Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2015 #161

Well, sure. Just like anyone I suppose. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #187

The logical statement would be Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2015 #188

It is insanity to hear them hop from book to book. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #189

This "counselor" is a piece of work. progressoid Sep 2015 #44

Thanks! I couldn't get the video to embed in the op. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #47

So the Court (government) orders counseling mountain grammy Sep 2015 #62

Christian fascism. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #46

When I read the headline I thought it would be Texas. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #48

So if the higher power is Punx Sep 2015 #58

You mean in AA? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #59

Yes, like A.A. -- all 6 of the highest courts have found it to be religious, for quite obvious progree Sep 2015 #60

Thank you, that deserves its own op in this group. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #63

Thanks. I'll work on a stand-alone OP version progree Sep 2015 #71

What I was trying to point out Punx Sep 2015 #69

Good point about being a user of Cannabis and a follower of the Church of C. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #72

Where is the ACLU? If ever there was a case of the jwirr Sep 2015 #66

She got her kids back but hopefully she sues. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #68

Thanks for the correction. Glad she got the kids back. jwirr Sep 2015 #70

Yes, most counselors who are religious don't cross that line. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #73

"most counselors who are religious don't cross that line" Lordquinton Sep 2015 #128

Sue for What? She disobeyed a COURT ORDER. happyslug Sep 2015 #80

From the ACLU: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #85

The ACLU rarely gets involved in Child custody cases. happyslug Sep 2015 #100

You're telling me what this woman "should have done" based on what you don't know? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #103

The Report stated the Judge took away the Children, that could only be be in contempt happyslug Sep 2015 #108

So you're just speculating that she was a bitter ex and used this as an excuse to get out of it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #109

Did you even read the story, or watch the video? passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #176

An ACLU case would not be a child custody case, it would be a violation of her civil liberties Dont call me Shirley Sep 2015 #163

It is? Courts do this all the time... happyslug Sep 2015 #77

You suspect. The article stated that the court selected jwirr Sep 2015 #82

I knew someone would be along to blame the mom. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #87

To may variables for the Court to have selected the Counseling service happyslug Sep 2015 #114

Evidence - you are still suspecting. When a judge directs jwirr Sep 2015 #117

AA OPPOSES such Court Orders happyslug Sep 2015 #120

Baloney. A.A. actively facilitates coerced attendance progree Sep 2015 #143

I worked in the court system in my state for several years, and that's not at all how it worked EvolveOrConvolve Sep 2015 #178

I suspect what you are describing is true of some judges and some jurisdictions progree Sep 2015 #83

No passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #177

Courts do NOT take phone calls, they want a written petition. happyslug Sep 2015 #182

When they didn't reply to her, she did take it back to court passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #183

Where is the FATHER's side of this argument??? Where is the appeal? happyslug Sep 2015 #75

Oh please. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #79

My experience is the MOTHER SELECTED HER COUNSELOR happyslug Sep 2015 #91

Your experience doesn't count for jack when you use it to blame the mother without evidence. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #94

I do NOT see anything that the Court ORDER religious teaching, happyslug Sep 2015 #106

Do you have a problem with an atheist being forced to write an essay titled "Who is God to me?" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #107

As I said before that was her choice happyslug Sep 2015 #110

It she refused to comply she would have lost her kids, she was forced to write it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #111

She always had the right to get her counseling done by someone else. happyslug Sep 2015 #144

I pity your clients if you base your judgment on the suspicion that women are liars. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #151

Wow, you have said that she "selected" this counselor at least ten times, Curmudgeoness Sep 2015 #121

a fictional character invented by primitive pre-scientific people to explain things like lightning progree Sep 2015 #112

I don't think they'd like what I'd write either. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #113

Yup. Church and State Magazine is full of cases like this. (au.org) progree Sep 2015 #115

I don't know what I'd do if I was ordered to AA. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #116

Ahh, the Marines. Well you asked for this... <g> progree Sep 2015 #118

Ugh. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #119

How did we get on the AA? happyslug Sep 2015 #124

Number one - A.A. facilitates coerced attendance. Two: Most courts in Minnesota do progree Sep 2015 #140

I didn't have any choice in the matter. onager Sep 2015 #152

Illegal orders should always be disobeyed Lordquinton Sep 2015 #129

+1 beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #130

I haven't seen such leaps of logic Since Lordquinton Sep 2015 #133

They do remind me of some other folks now that you mention it... beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #135

The husband and children have been reduced to barely a mention Lordquinton Sep 2015 #136

It was part of her plan to... to ... what was it she wanted to do again? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #137

If you break the law, be prepared to take the consequences, and that includes Court Orders... happyslug Sep 2015 #139

How do you know she had the option and chose to disobey the order instead? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #145

If you break the law be prepared to pay the consequences. Agree so far. But you don't have to like rhett o rick Sep 2015 #168

And that includes the judge. The judge broke the law by forcing an atheist to pray. jeff47 Sep 2015 #171

"The meaning in my life is to know..." AlbertCat Sep 2015 #78

Just imagine the kind of counseling she did when she worked for that radical anti-choice group. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #90

This story disgusts me. The total disregard of separation of church and state by the courts valerief Sep 2015 #86

Agreed. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #97

Bingo! valerief Sep 2015 #134

Chilling. This forced religious nuttery has got to stop. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #96

The mother was forced to write an essay "Who is God to me?". beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #99

Yeah, Huckabee would personally march into the counseling place Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #102

Judges keep getting... KyleMcShades Sep 2015 #131

I agree. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #132

Religion does not trump secular law. V0ltairesGh0st Sep 2015 #155

Hear hear! beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #156

They actually have an "alternative" swearing-in. jeff47 Sep 2015 #172

This isn't how you win converts Babel_17 Sep 2015 #162

It sure does make enemies. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #173

Look for the money trail between the judge and the "counselor." EEO Sep 2015 #165

Both should be out of jobs. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #174

Same here. I have been an atheist for nearly two decades now, and these things really piss me off. EEO Sep 2015 #179

Arrogance and force are not Christian. senz Sep 2015 #180

Obnoxious and infuriating. Yes, indeed. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #185

My "What-does-God-mean-to-you" homework: DetlefK Sep 2015 #186